Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[3sr+buyer]

I've driven cars over the years where the turn signal stack was on the right instead of the left.

In right hand drive (left side traffic) areas?

 

[EfficientWatts]

The basic problem, of course, it that everything was new at some point. There was nothing "intuitive" about a stalk when it was first introduced, and in fact I've driven cars over the years where the turn signal stack was on the right instead of the left.

The context here I feel is relative to how people expect to drive cars today. Having to push a button now to invoke certain actions is certainly not intuitive as using stalk or buttons, as people in general have a sense of how certain basic actions work given how other cars works.

New tech of course introduces the potential for possible friction against existing regulations and rules. I think people have varying degrees of dislikes as to how agencies adapt, while certainly more conservative in Europe around FSD and such, they are more accepting of other things vs America (newer headlights and side cameras vs mirrors for example).

If Tesla's way of things becomes more prevalent, then maybe they're change their stance on the safety ratings; after all Tesla can still make the cars, they'll just be dinged a star. As the market changes and grows (kinda like how screens took over physical keyboard phones) and a new generation grows up driving such cars, maybe things would become more intuitive with stalkless steering wheels. Until then (if ever), expect to see pushback, and its not just because of "old man yelling at cloud" type of people. Physical buttons vs screens on phones is one thing, but there's a lot more at stake when you're talking about a multi-ton mass going down the road.

 

[whitex]

Possibly relevant to this thread

Tesla's controversial turn signals are going to ding its near-perfect safety rating

Tesla’s controversial turn signals without the traditional steering wheel stalk are going to make the automaker lose its near-perfect safety...

electrek.co

So works as intended. Elon is expecting EU to start rating for safety while on autopilot, and there signals are automatic, so the difference between manual driving rating and ADAS driving will be greater.

 

[Knightshade]

So works as intended. Elon is expecting EU to start rating for safety while on autopilot

Do you have a citation for that?

I find the claim odd since EURO CAP has been rating ADAS systems for years already so why would he think they're going to "start" doing that? Nor does it have anything to do with the non-assist safety score which is going to depend on if there's buttons for the features listed or not.

Assisted Driving Gradings | Euro NCAP

On this page you will find the gradings of cars tested by Euro NCAP on assisted driving technologies

www.euroncap.com

Tesla did not do terribly well last time they were reviewed- assistance competence was only 36% but it's an old score.

 

[drtimhill]

The context here I feel is relative to how people expect to drive cars today. Having to push a button now to invoke certain actions is certainly not intuitive as using stalk or buttons, as people in general have a sense of how certain basic actions work given how other cars works.

New tech of course introduces the potential for possible friction against existing regulations and rules. I think people have varying degrees of dislikes as to how agencies adapt, while certainly more conservative in Europe around FSD and such, they are more accepting of other things vs America (newer headlights and side cameras vs mirrors for example).

Ever looked at the gear selector on modern cars? They are all over the place. Gone is the familiar PRNDL and now there are pull buttons or strange mixes of angled buttons or rotating dials or goodness knows what else. Or they are on a stalk (Tesla, old station wagons), which is hardly standard. Pretty much every car I've rented recently has a non-standard stalk for lights with all sorts of twist knobs with no real standardization.

The fact is, there is huge variance in car controls. Singling out the Tesla turn signals in this way seems odd to me.

 

[Knightshade]

Ever looked at the gear selector on modern cars? They are all over the place. Gone is the familiar PRNDL and now there are pull buttons or strange mixes of angled buttons or rotating dials or goodness knows what else. Or they are on a stalk (Tesla, old station wagons), which is hardly standard. Pretty much every car I've rented recently has a non-standard stalk for lights with all sorts of twist knobs with no real standardization.

The fact is, there is huge variance in car controls. Singling out the Tesla turn signals in this way seems odd to me.

Except in a modern automatic you're typically changing gears when at a complete stop

So needing to "look" isn't a safety issue.

Not so turn signals.

 

[3sr+buyer]

The fact is, there is huge variance in car controls. Singling out the Tesla turn signals in this way seems odd to me.

What recent car in the US besides some Teslas has something other than a stalk for turn signals?

 

[stopcrazypp]

What recent car in the US besides some Teslas has something other than a stalk for turn signals?

Ferraris have been using turn signal buttons for a while already:

Looking at accounts of some of the people taking delivery, they say they got used to the buttons on the highland within about an hour. Even people in countries with roundabouts said it works fine there too. So perhaps people that haven't used it in daily use are making a bigger deal about it than it actually is.

 

[afadeev]

Looking at accounts of some of the people taking delivery, they say they got used to the buttons on the highland within about an hour. Even people in countries with roundabouts said it works fine there too. So perhaps people that haven't used it in daily use are making a bigger deal about it than it actually is.

That is the EXACT opposite of what every reviewer shares, and what I have experienced on a Highland test drive.
Even Tesla fan-boys are trashing the stupid turn-signal stalk delete :

 

[mtiede]

Ferraris have been using turn signal buttons for a while already:

Looking at accounts of some of the people taking delivery, they say they got used to the buttons on the highland within about an hour. Even people in countries with roundabouts said it works fine there too. So perhaps people that haven't used it in daily use are making a bigger deal about it than it actually is.

Yeah, I don't feel comfortable using even the STALK in a roundabout. I usually don't signal when leaving the roundabout. I'm busy making sure I don't hit any curbs on the way and there isn't anyone in the roundabout that doesn't understand how they work. (in US more roundabouts are being created than there used to be. More than once saw someone driving the WRONG DIRECTION in the roundabout.)

 

[stopcrazypp]

That is the EXACT opposite of what every reviewer shares, and what I have experienced on a Highland test drive.
Even Tesla fan-boys are trashing the stupid turn-signal stalk delete :

Reviewers of course can have their own opinions, just like how when Model 3 came out the lack of a dash is complained about (it still is in some reviews) or how the regen setting was almost universally hated (many complaints after regen adjustment was removed in menu). After people started using it, it's not a big deal for buyers, regardless of what reviewers say.

 

[Videomatic3]

Ferraris have been using turn signal buttons for a while already:

Looking at accounts of some of the people taking delivery, they say they got used to the buttons on the highland within about an hour. Even people in countries with roundabouts said it works fine there too. So perhaps people that haven't used it in daily use are making a bigger deal about it than it actually is.

i think i would be more ok with the way these turning signals are, compared to how tesla handled it. i drove around for many hours, approximately 500 miles in a day when i had a loaner car, and once it got dark, i stopped signaling.

 

[zoomer0056]

i think i would be more ok with the way these turning signals are, compared to how tesla handled it. i drove around for many hours, approximately 500 miles in a day when i had a loaner car, and once it got dark, i stopped signaling.

That's also totally ignoring the use of the raised line that let's you feel where the turn signals are ... without looking.

 

[Videomatic3]

That's also totally ignoring the use of the raised line that let's you feel where the turn signals are ... without looking.

it wasnt enough for me/couldnt feel it, i kept pressing too far into the steering wheel. and the fact that its a touch screen and not a button made it worse, you couldnt feel yourself pressing it, you just listen for the signal or look at the screen to see it turning on. this ferrari looks like its an actual button. tesla needs a bump, dimple, outline, something to indicate where the buttons are.

i also like the fact that the left is on the left, the right is on the right.
or just put the stalks back, have the buttons on the steering wheel and give people the option. once they get used to it then you can transition over.

 

[stopcrazypp]

it wasnt enough for me/couldnt feel it, i kept pressing too far into the steering wheel. and the fact that its a touch screen and not a button made it worse, you couldnt feel yourself pressing it, you just listen for the signal or look at the screen to see it turning on. this ferrari looks like its an actual button. tesla needs a bump, dimple, outline, something to indicate where the buttons are.

i also like the fact that the left is on the left, the right is on the right.
or just put the stalks back, have the buttons on the steering wheel and give people the option. once they get used to it then you can transition over.

To clarify, you have an S right? Tesla supposedly fixed those issues on the 3. The buttons are actual buttons (not capacitive touch) and they have a raised divider that allows you to feel it better.

 

[Videomatic3]

To clarify, you have an S right? Tesla supposedly fixed those issues on the 3. The buttons are actual buttons (not capacitive touch) and they have a raised divider that allows you to feel it better.

i have a 2015 model s but why does that matter?
if the model 3 highland is different then i havent tried it. i had a model s loaner
oh i read my first post again, i guess i forgot to clairify the loaner was a model s

 

[SVMike]

For me the biggest problem with no turn signal stalk is for the occasional driver of the car.
I have no doubt that after a few days or weeks I'd get used to it as most would.
But what about a 2nd driver that rarely uses the car and has to use it on rare occasions.
They would hate it. There are already enough things that are different about driving a Tesla

 

[zoomer0056]

But what about a 2nd driver that rarely uses the car and has to use it on rare occasions.

It would take 30 seconds in the drive way for an occasional driver to re-famliarize themselves with signal activation. Sit in car, feel for raised line, activate right turn signal. Feel for raised line, deactivate right turn signal. Repeat for left. I'm not saying they wont hate it, just that they could learn how to use them. This operation can be simple while driving by signaling before turning the wheel. If they can't do this, then just do what more than half of all drivers do, Tesla or not, and don't signal. Or if they, and you as a passeger, feel uncomfortable ... take the ICE car today. My wife refuses to learn the Tesla way. So when she wants to drive, I get to be a passenger in her ICE vehicle.

 

[whitex]

Looking at accounts of some of the people taking delivery, they say they got used to the buttons on the highland within about an hour. Even people in countries with roundabouts said it works fine there too. So perhaps people that haven't used it in daily use are making a bigger deal about it than it actually is.

By "get used to" do you mean "learn to live with it" or "prefer it"?

Either way, the people who didn't get a long enough test drive to get used to it will still be lost sales to Tesla. My wife, after 2 Model S'es and really wanting a Model X, decided against it after test driving the yoke. Tesla could offer a money-back-guarantee like they used to, if they are really sure people will get used to it within 7 days.

 

[zoomer0056]

"learn to live with it" or "prefer it"?

The better phrase is "learn how to use".