Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[WyoDude]

In the Tesla Model 3, manually activating the parking brake is done by holding the park button down for a few seconds, which is not obvious without reading the manual (which also does not mention any automatic parking brake activation).

This isn’t true.
The parking brake comes on automatically after taping the park button. Pressing and holding the park button is how you engage the emergency parking brake. This is in the manual and there are several threads going over this.

 

[John Latham]

What car will you buy then? Almost none of them have traditional PRNDL transmission controls any more.

Nothing, for now.

But I can probably live with a physical forward-reverse selector that isn't separate buttons at head height, as long as I have indicator stalks.

The requirement is that indicators and drive can be safely and comfortably operated by physical controls in a fixed location without taking my eyes off the road.

I have read arguments about the need to confirm stalk drive changes visually but haven't found this necessary in 150k km so find them unconvincing, but YMMV.

Aftermarket stalks would be fine.

 

[Timmo]

What car will you buy then? Almost none of them have traditional PRNDL transmission controls any more.

An EV doesn't require a gear selector like an ICE vehicle. What Tesla must do for safety reasons is design a physical selector that does not move with the steering wheel, always operates the same way, and does not require a driver to take their eyes off the road or fiddle with a touchscreen. Take a look at how VW designed the shift lever to get an idea of how this problem can be solved simply and elegantly.

 

[3sr+buyer]

The parking brake comes on automatically after taping the park button. Pressing and holding the park button is how you engage the emergency parking brake.

It does not appear to engage automatically immediately. Holding the park button for a few seconds results in an additional mechanical sound plus the appearance of the parking brake indicator on the screen that does not appear when the park button is just tapped.

 

[Knightshade]

Do you see any irony with the fact that the press reported on her difficulties changing gears as she described to 3rd parties numerous times, which you call "no evidence" and then immediately make a completely unsupported insinuation that she was inebriated?
Congratulations - you just scored points with the Elon Fanboy Club!

I looked at 3 different news reports when this came up-

Mitch McConnell’s Sister-In-Law Died After Accidentally Reversing Tesla Into Pond: Report

A new report sheds light on the Feb. 11 death of Angela Chao, who served as the CEO of shipping company Foremost Group.

www.huffpost.com

This mentions "Chao had been enjoying an evening with friends" which was the drinking.
It makes no mention of her ever mentioning trouble shifting the car.

Details reveal the desperate attempt to save CEO Angela Chao, trapped in a submerged Tesla

CEO of Foremost Group Angela Chao died in a car accident on her Texas ranch. She was trapped in her car for an hour while rescuers tried to save her.

www.usatoday.com

This describes it as an accident, but again makes no mention of her previously having trouble shifting the car.

Mitch McConnell’s Sister-in-Law Called Her Friends for Help Before Tragically Drowning in Her Tesla: Report

Chao made a panicked phone call to one of her friends who were still inside the guest house.

radaronline.com

This mentions she had just prior to getting int he car been "njoying an evening with her friends, eating and drinking" but again makes no mention of her having prior trouble shifing the car- though it does at least reference a paywall WSJ story that supposedly has something about wrong shifting being the proximate cause.

0 of them BTW cite if the X in questiion had stalks either (no year is given for the vehicle)

So the drinking thins is mentioned more often than the shifting thing in a random sampling of stories on this anyway.


If you wanna ascribe some weird motives to the actual contents of the stories go right ahead, but please don't ascribe them to me.

 

[Timmo]

I looked at 3 different news reports when this came up-

Mitch McConnell’s Sister-In-Law Died After Accidentally Reversing Tesla Into Pond: Report

A new report sheds light on the Feb. 11 death of Angela Chao, who served as the CEO of shipping company Foremost Group.

www.huffpost.com

This mentions "Chao had been enjoying an evening with friends" which was the drinking.
It makes no mention of her ever mentioning trouble shifting the car.

Details reveal the desperate attempt to save CEO Angela Chao, trapped in a submerged Tesla

CEO of Foremost Group Angela Chao died in a car accident on her Texas ranch. She was trapped in her car for an hour while rescuers tried to save her.

www.usatoday.com

This describes it as an accident, but again makes no mention of her previously having trouble shifting the car.

Mitch McConnell’s Sister-in-Law Called Her Friends for Help Before Tragically Drowning in Her Tesla: Report

Chao made a panicked phone call to one of her friends who were still inside the guest house.

radaronline.com

This mentions she had just prior to getting int he car been "njoying an evening with her friends, eating and drinking" but again makes no mention of her having prior trouble shifing the car- though it does at least reference a paywall WSJ story that supposedly has something about wrong shifting being the proximate cause.

0 of them BTW cite if the X in questiion had stalks either (no year is given for the vehicle)

So the drinking thins is mentioned more often than the shifting thing in a random sampling of stories on this anyway.


If you wanna ascribe some weird motives to the actual contents of the stories go right ahead, but please don't ascribe them to me.

check out the WSJ report:

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/angela-chao-death-texas-tesla-safety-c435daa0?mod=e2li

What Tesla must do for safety reasons is design a physical selector that does not move with the steering wheel, always operates the same way, and does not require a driver to take their eyes off the road or fiddle with a touchscreen. Take a look at how VW designed the shift lever to get an idea of how this problem can be solved simply and elegantly.

If it's weird to point out stupid design decisions by manufacturers, then yes, I'm weird.

 

[MitchMitch]

. . . . What Tesla must do for safety reasons is design a physical selector that does not move with the steering wheel, always operates the same way, and does not require a driver to take their eyes off the road or fiddle with a touchscreen. . . . .

Meh. . . . . . . . . . . . .I I would take anything/everything from WSJ with a grain of salt, although I didn't read the whole paywalled piece.

While her death (RIP) is indeed tragic, I ( like many alert/sober drivers I imagine ) find the refresh touch screen and accompaning audio/visual feedback very well thought-out/executed. . . elegant one might note. Kudos to the Tesla design team I say. I will state that I never use the AUTO SHIFT OUT OF PARK since I insist on being in control.

Should good design rely on a clunky twisty-turny ( half push - really!?) of a contrived "gear selector" thingy? (looks pretty break-down-able to me)

The sad incident is definitely worth a "note to self" but certainly not a complete re-do of a simple, safe, effective, reliable, predictable, UPDATEABLE!, method of operator input that I'm sure was researched to the nth degree. Those folks at NHTSA, who are also pretty good at what they do, surely wouldn't have given it the "OKEE-DOKE" if they hadn't put it to the test.

 

[Knightshade]

check out the WSJ report:

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/angela-chao-death-texas-tesla-safety-c435daa0?mod=e2li

Got anything I don't have to pay to read?

What Tesla must do for safety reasons is design a physical selector that does not move with the steering wheel, always operates the same way, and does not require a driver to take their eyes off the road or fiddle with a touchscreen.

First- they HAVE ONE.

Every stalkless car still has physical buttons to select gears if you prefer them.

Second- when do you ever shift gears (in a non-manual) when the car is not completely stopped and with your foot on the brake? And thus the "without your eyes off the road" bit is not relevant.

 

[3sr+buyer]

What Tesla must do for safety reasons is design a physical selector that does not move with the steering wheel, always operates the same way, and does not require a driver to take their eyes off the road or fiddle with a touchscreen.

The PRND ceiling buttons in the Highland Model 3 fulfill your criteria.

The right stalk in the old Model 3 fulfills your criteria for a shifter at low speeds (at higher speeds, it controls the cruise control and lane centering).

 

[WyoDude]

It does not appear to engage automatically immediately. Holding the park button for a few seconds results in an additional mechanical sound plus the appearance of the parking brake indicator on the screen that does not appear when the park button is just tapped.

Post in thread 'How to turn off the parking brake on a M3?'
How to turn off the parking brake on a M3?

 

[Timmo]

Got anything I don't have to pay to read?





First- they HAVE ONE.

Every stalkless car still has physical buttons to select gears if you prefer them.

View attachment 1028826

Second- when do you ever shift gears (in a non-manual) when the car is not completely stopped and with your foot on the brake? And thus the "without your eyes off the road" bit is not relevant.

the need for a quick change of direction happens from time to time.

 

[Timmo]

the need for a quick change of direction happens from time to time.

here's another article that references the WSJ report. https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/angela-chao-cause-of-death-18967658.php

We'll probably never know what happened for certain. Cars are easy to drive most of the time. Control operation only become critical in emergency situations. I favor controls that I can operate using muscle memory. In the end, the market will decide whether Tesla's changes are accepted or not. I, for one, don't accept Tesla's new design and that's why I voiced my opinion.

 

[MitchMitch]

Indeed, to each his own.
This “old dog” learned to drive 50 years ago in a “three on the tree” ‘59 Impala, and I’ve owned everything from an 77 MGB to a 2015 GM 2500 pickup. Driven busses and trucks for pay. . .

When I picked up my X last January, I waved off any orientation, hopped in and drove off without a second thought.
Very intuitive in my estimation. First time I ever touched a yoke. I drove it 250 miles home in a snow storm without a hitch other than the obligatory forced I-70 bypass to US 6 on account of incompetent (overconfident? ill-equipped? ) semi drivers.

So I just went out to the garage, got in with the radio up and with my eyes closed put the car in drive, reverse, and back to park . . just to check if I could . . . Easy Peasy! ( I was careful not to press the accelerator )
Kind Regards

 

[John Latham]

Got anything I don't have to pay to read?





First- they HAVE ONE.

Every stalkless car still has physical buttons to select gears if you prefer them.

View attachment 1028826

Second- when do you ever shift gears (in a non-manual) when the car is not completely stopped and with your foot on the brake? And thus the "without your eyes off the road" bit is not relevant.

When I am executing a multi point turn in my M3 I am constantly scanning for hazards including pedestrians moving through blind spots. I do not want to take my eyes off the external environment even for a second.

It's nothing to do with using the brake and stopping. I'm actually not sure whether I do use the foot brake or just regen, but it's not relevant.

The argument isn't that it's impossible to drive a Highland safely, it's that it's harder. Harder is not progress.

Using the ceiling buttons would be ridiculous. Aside from the having to take a hand off the wheel to locate a specific button, other road users would be think I was signalling in some fashion. They're obviously designed as backup in case the screen fails.

The design reminds me of a Citroen C5 I owned a few years ago which had horn buttons rather than being able to hit the airbag cover. Not once in four years did I manage to use the horn when needed. I swear they did it because they didn't trust their own airbag design.

 

[whitex]

That’s the reason I bought a 23 M3P and refused to replace my S with another. Had a friend test drive an X recently, he ended up buying an Audi EV, lack of stalks was a major factor in his decision as well. Hopefully, after another crappy quarter, Tesla changes course and give customers more choices. I have bought 4 Teslas in 5 years, but, I don’t think I would want to buy another if they don’t change course

Funny, after 2 consecutive Model S'es my wife really wanted a Model X. After test driving one with a yoke, she went with an Audi EV. She occasionally complains about the Audi deficiencies, to which I often respond, "just say the word, and I will replace the Audi with a new X", and she always says "no thanks". Full disclosure, I also went from 2 consecutive Model S to a Porsche EV. Yes, Tesla does some things better, but not going back at this time time, the stalkless yoke was the #1 reason (I actually considered leasing the Plaid while waiting for the Porsche during the pandemic, one drive with the yoke convinced me to keep my old Model S until the Porsche arrived).

 

[snorp]

My wife also won’t drive a new X without stalks. I tried to get her to upgrade this month as we could stack transferring FSD, FUSC, and $1k CT incentive. She test drove one and said no way.

So unfortunately this will be her last X unless Tesla makes changes. I suspect they will stop production of the X before that happens.

 

[ks1972]

Funny, after 2 consecutive Model S'es my wife really wanted a Model X. After test driving one with a yoke, she went with an Audi EV. She occasionally complains about the Audi deficiencies, to which I often respond, "just say the word, and I will replace the Audi with a new X", and she always says "no thanks". Full disclosure, I also went from 2 consecutive Model S to a Porsche EV. Yes, Tesla does some things better, but not going back at this time time, the stalkless yoke was the #1 reason (I actually considered leasing the Plaid while waiting for the Porsche during the pandemic, one drive with the yoke convinced me to keep my old Model S until the Porsche arrived).

Not to mention the removal of USS and lack of autopark and summon

 

[Zythryn]

My wife also won’t drive a new X without stalks. I tried to get her to upgrade this month as we could stack transferring FSD, FUSC, and $1k CT incentive. She test drove one and said no way.

So unfortunately this will be her last X unless Tesla makes changes. I suspect they will stop production of the X before that happens.

I probably would have a similar reaction.
From what I saw, the turn signals on the X & S are smooth capacitance ‘buttons’ with no texture.
The 3 has actual buttons with a ridge you can feel.
For me, it makes a huge difference.

I expect the use of actual buttons to make its way to the S & X. However that probably won’t be the change your wife is looking for.

 

[primedive]

I test drove the new M3 highland 2 times in the past couple of weeks. The first car was really solid, but the second one was already squeaking and rattling after 1000km. I was hoping this sort of variance was fixed but possibly the car had been abused by previous testers.

My thoughts on no stalks: the windshield wiper, high beam and autopilot controls were serviceable. Changing gear on the touch screen is an inferior experience but I could get used to it. However, after two test drives, I still greatly dislike having the turn buttons on the steering wheel. I love my Model Y but if the refresh is going this way, I’ll be done with Tesla when it’s time to replace.

 

[Knightshade]

When I am executing a multi point turn in my M3 I am constantly scanning for hazards including pedestrians moving through blind spots. I do not want to take my eyes off the external environment even for a second.

Why?

If you're at a stop-- which I'd have failed my driving test if I tried shifting while the car was moving-- it's impossible for taking your eyes off the road a second to cause you to hit something- you're not moving.

You SHOULD be taking your eyes off the road anyway to verify the shift took even with a stalk.

THEN once you're sure you're in gear, take your foot off the brake and look around before putting the car into motion again.

The argument isn't that it's impossible to drive a Highland safely, it's that it's harder. Harder is not progress.

I just don't really see how it's harder unless you're driving unsafely to start with.

And it's not like we haven't had posts from people who missed a gear change with a stalk either. Folks who ran over curbs, into store windows, etc because they were in the wrong gear with a stalk

The issue is bad driving and people not confirming the car changed gears (and direction) before putting their foot on the go pedal.

Using the ceiling buttons would be ridiculous. Aside from the having to take a hand off the wheel to locate a specific button, other road users would be think I was signalling in some fashion.

Why is only having 1 hand on the wheel at a dead stop as you should be to shift and change direction an issue again?




Anyway, reports say no autopsy, so we won't have evidence besides circumstantial that alcohol was involved -- which is she was driving 4 minutes up the road, at night, from the 10-bedroom guest house she'd been partying at all day with a bunch of friends to the main house to sleep-- and also apparently forgot how the windows and doors worked on the vehicle since she made a phone call asking for help but didn't bother helping herself... the vehicle wasn't below water when she initially called it seems- the windows would've still opened easy enough, and even if power was lost (unlikely to have happened immediately) there's a physical door release that would've worked fine if the vehicle wasn't fully submerged yet--- or even submerged would've worked as soon as the interior was nearly full of water to equalize pressure.

Whole thing kinda reminds me of the dude whose family died in the Lexus with the wrong-sized floor mats that caused the accelerator to get stuck, who had at least 3 or 4 ways he could've safely stopped the vehicle but chose none of them due to panic-- with the added possibility in the Tesla case of alcohol involvement.