Steering response: 2017 LR versus 2018 Perf

[Odiemac]

Hi all, I recently sold my Dec 2017 Model 3 and got a Model 3 Perf with the Performance Upgrade Package.

As a former Model S owner, the 2018 suspension and steering feels a lot more like a Model S: heavier, more vague on-center, and less willing to change direction. It makes the car feel physically bigger and less chuck-able. On the upside, the ride is dramatically more comfortable, even on the 20” versus 18” wheels.

For those of you who changed their 2017 suspension to the softer later version, how did it change the ride/handling of your car? I’m wondering if I go with aftermarket springs/coilivers if the divine handling will return. Sometimes cars that are under-damped have similar on-center vagueness.

 

[kbecks13]

As someone with a Dec 2017 LR and considering getting the P3D+, that is concerning to hear! I love how responsive my current suspension is, but agree that it's fairly harsh even with 18" aeros

 

[brandonee916]

I love driving it in Sport steering mode... the weight is incredible

 

[Daniel in SD]

Adding 250lbs to the front of a vehicle and torque to the front wheels (AWD) is generally not a recipe for improved handling feel. That could be part of the problem too.

 

[mcbarnet007]

I think the SR Model 3 is going to handle amazingly with aftermarket coilover

 

[Odiemac]

I did some testing over the weekend with a couple different tires, and it appears that steering response could be partially down to the Michelin Pilot 4S tires. They may have a soft sidewall to provide a better ride with the big 20" wheel.

But @kbecks13, you will probably be surprised by the difference in suspension. Much more comfortable but a lot less "racy".

 

[kbecks13]

I did some testing over the weekend with a couple different tires

I saw in another write-up of a track day with the P3D+ that they had pretty bad tire degradation with cords showing on the outer edges after a few sessions. Do you have any comments on how the various tires held up?

I'm just about to pull the trigger on the upgrade, but a little sad that it won't be as racy. The early suspension on the RWD feels sooo nimble, though definitely rough and bumpy.

 

[Ohms Law]

Interesting! I hope this is just tires. I really do not like how Model S turn in. My early production Model 3 originally came with a stiffer suspension that I swapped with new revision softer shocks/springs.
After that update, I did NOT notice any substantial change in turn in characteristic.
As per Daniel in SD, front drive unit will change steering response. But we also have to keep in mind that Tesla balanced it with bigger sway bars and stiffer front springs. Also, track width increased by 10mm due to the 35mm offset on 20"wheels. vs 40mm.
Again, I really hope that this is just tires. What other tires did you try?

 

[Odiemac]

I saw in another write-up of a track day with the P3D+ that they had pretty bad tire degradation with cords showing on the outer edges after a few sessions. Do you have any comments on how the various tires held up?

I mostly used the stock Pilot 4S tires, and they held up fine. I'm sure tons of tracking would wear down the outer shoulder, but I did 25-30 laps that day and here is the wear I saw:

 

[mcbarnet007]

I mostly used the stock Pilot 4S tires, and they held up fine. I'm sure tons of tracking would wear down the outer shoulder, but I did 25-30 laps that day and here is the wear I saw:

Congrats on setting the new EV record! I've been reading tirerack reviews and it seems Pilot 4S has the tendency to chunk at the outer shoulder. Also, this tire is made with better range in mind. I think if you change it to any other 200 TW tires you'll find better turn in feel.

 

[JeffC]

Steering will feel heavier with the stickier, lower profile, performance oriented Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tire of Performance Model 3 with the Performance Upgrade option.

I also have a theory that the virtual steering axis front suspension needs some load from high cornering forces to feel more lively:

Comments on Tesla Model 3

Thoughts on steering feel

15 September 2018

Tesla uses a virtual steering axis front suspension design. This means that the front suspension linkages are arranged in a way that intersects the steering axis through the tire contact patch in a way that both lets the steering very accurately sense the forces on the tire and also enhances the feeling of it for the driver.

Some reviewers have commented about a lack of steering feel at low power, and I concur with this somewhat. Some of the numbness could be exactly due to the presence of the bushings in the virtual steering axis suspension linkages. However at higher lateral forces, the steering comes alive and the feel is greatly enhanced by the design, which allows the driver to extremely clearly feel through the steering wheel what the front tires and the entire chassis are doing through a turn. Some energy is probably needed to bias the bushings into a more linear operating region, like energy stored in a spring. (Indeed the tires themselves also need some energy to load their inherent hysteresis into more linear behavior.) But when it's so loaded, the feel through the steering wheel is exquisite, delicate and highly communicative. This is most noticeable during sustained high power cornering a race track. During normal street driving, the steering is very slightly numb, but the isolation from road imperfections during typical low performance street driving is probably a benefit to comfort. In short, this is an excellent compromise between low power comfort and high power responsiveness and feel.

 

[Msjulie]

The early suspension on the RWD feels sooo nimble, though definitely rough and bumpy.

I may be the only person that can say this - I've driven the RWD (Jan build) and now a performance 3 (w/o 20" etc upgrades) on the exact same set of tires (literally) and rims.

The additional drive unit weight and behavior is very noticeable and relates to the single biggest thing I can say about the handling change. With the 'old' RWD, fast acceleration w/small turn (left turn out of parking lot with less than agreeable traffic assistance) could invoke a small bit of tire squealing and the tiniest of rear step-out before the ESC reigned it in so there's that impact.

With the AWD w/performance grunt, I've not surprisingly yet been able to do that but the car is much more confident to drive in every condition so far.. I've not yet had the opportunity to be a complete hooligan yet though..

So yes you will feel the added weight but the tradeoff so far seems worth it to me.. also the interior quality is improved, fwiw, since the early build dates.

 

[JeffC]

I may be the only person that can say this - I've driven the RWD (Jan build) and now a performance 3 (w/o 20" etc upgrades) on the exact same set of tires (literally) and rims.

The additional drive unit weight and behavior is very noticeable and relates to the single biggest thing I can say about the handling change. With the 'old' RWD, fast acceleration w/small turn (left turn out of parking lot with less than agreeable traffic assistance) could invoke a small bit of tire squealing and the tiniest of rear step-out before the ESC reigned it in so there's that impact.

With the AWD w/performance grunt, I've not surprisingly yet been able to do that but the car is much more confident to drive in every condition so far.. I've not yet had the opportunity to be a complete hooligan yet though..

So yes you will feel the added weight but the tradeoff so far seems worth it to me.. also the interior quality is improved, fwiw, since the early build dates.

Thanks for the very interesting comparison between rear motor and dual motor steering feel! The front motor really balances out the acceleration of the car, and adds grip due to 2 more driven wheels.

I'm pretty sure I felt the added weight of the front motor vs single motor during my test drives. My strong recommendation is doing a tire upgrade to be able to (much) better use more of the performance of the Performance Model 3. For example, the excellent Michelin Pilot Sport 4S on the same wheels will perform and feel much better. It may reduce some range, but the Performance model really benefits from better tires for high performance driving. Reference (although this is moving to near race tires, we can see how poorly the Aero wheels perform on the race track):

Imagine a BMW M3 on the same energy tires as the Aeros. It would definitely have lower performance limits. Same with Performance Model 3.

For people who do not track their cars or who drive mildly on the street, the Aeros and energy tires will be ok and have more range.

 

[Odiemac]

Good feedback Julie. I believe the Jan build cars have the softer suspension and the rubber rear subframe bushings (versus solid mount in Dec cars), so it sounds like the motor difference is subtle and mostly weight-related based on your feedback.

I hear Track Mode is very oversteer-y right now, so perhaps that will bring back some of the fun tail-happiness of the RWD.

I may be the only person that can say this - I've driven the RWD (Jan build) and now a performance 3 (w/o 20" etc upgrades) on the exact same set of tires (literally) and rims.

The additional drive unit weight and behavior is very noticeable and relates to the single biggest thing I can say about the handling change. With the 'old' RWD, fast acceleration w/small turn (left turn out of parking lot with less than agreeable traffic assistance) could invoke a small bit of tire squealing and the tiniest of rear step-out before the ESC reigned it in so there's that impact.

With the AWD w/performance grunt, I've not surprisingly yet been able to do that but the car is much more confident to drive in every condition so far.. I've not yet had the opportunity to be a complete hooligan yet though..

So yes you will feel the added weight but the tradeoff so far seems worth it to me.. also the interior quality is improved, fwiw, since the early build dates.

 

[kbecks13]

Just traded in my Dec 2017 RWD Model 3 for a P3D+ made in Sept '18 and WOW it is a different driving feel completely.

I totally agree with what @Odiemac said in his first post, the P3D+ feels much softer and "squishier" compared to the old RWD. The steering is definitely a bit gummy and it does feel like it's potentially the tires, but steering wheel input also feels a bit heavier (even on Sport setting).

Also surprised at how the steering feels during hard acceleration, but i suppose that comes with the AWD design and the fact that the front tires are pulling you forward.

Oh and btw - the new seats are SO MUCH BETTER, i did not realize it would be this big of a change. Definitely hugs you more than the old car, should be good for the track

 

[Daniel in SD]

I wonder why they're putting so much power to front motor. I definitely feel the inside front wheel fighting for traction when turning. Reminds me of my Subaru

 

[JeffC]

Just traded in my Dec 2017 RWD Model 3 for a P3D+ made in Sept '18 and WOW it is a different driving feel completely.

I totally agree with what @Odiemac said in his first post, the P3D+ feels much softer and "squishier" compared to the old RWD. The steering is definitely a bit gummy and it does feel like it's potentially the tires, but steering wheel input also feels a bit heavier (even on Sport setting).

Also surprised at how the steering feels during hard acceleration, but i suppose that comes with the AWD design and the fact that the front tires are pulling you forward.

Oh and btw - the new seats are SO MUCH BETTER, i did not realize it would be this big of a change. Definitely hugs you more than the old car, should be good for the track

Most of the difference in feel probably is the drive torque going through the front wheels. Have you driven a powerful front wheel drive car before? They generally lack the clearer steering feel of rear wheel drive cars, particularly at high torque levels. (See also: torque steer.)

Putting torque down through the front wheels will make any car's steering feel a bit more "confused" because it's literally asking the front tires to do much more than just steer. It's a consequence of the physics, and it's why RWD drive cars are valued for their crisper steering feel.

All that said, in a high g, high power turn (for example a long sweeper on a race track), the virtual steering axis in Model 3 Performance really comes alive, and the steering transmits exquisite feedback about exactly what the front tires are doing. Please see my comments at:

Comments on Tesla Model 3

for some thoughts on why that is.

 

[kbecks13]

Oh it even feels significantly different when just driving at low speed (5-10 mph) and without sudden acceleration. The steering definitely feels heavier and less assisted compared to my old RWD (both being set to Sport), but i'm not sure if it's just the stickier tires or perhaps an actual difference in how they scale input to the power for the steering rack.

The suspension must also be much softer because i'm coming from 18" aero's to low profile 20" tires and the drive is much smoother with fewer bumps, which is pretty surprising.

 

[JeffC]

Oh it even feels significantly different when just driving at low speed (5-10 mph) and without sudden acceleration. The steering definitely feels heavier and less assisted compared to my old RWD (both being set to Sport), but i'm not sure if it's just the stickier tires or perhaps an actual difference in how they scale input to the power for the steering rack.

The suspension must also be much softer because i'm coming from 18" aero's to low profile 20" tires and the drive is much smoother with fewer bumps, which is pretty surprising.

A couple comments, sort of in reverse order:

1. The energy efficient tires on the Aero wheels do ride hard probably due to high tire pressures (at least originally) and due to the energy efficient construction. They're meant for lowest energy, not great comfort. I totally agree they ride hard. They're meant to. The harder ride means the tire is deforming less. Deforming represents energy loss. That's part of the design of the tire itself.

2. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S are MUCH stickier than the energy tires. They're also much lower profile. As someone who has modified many cars before with exactly that kind of change, yes, the steering feel of the stickier, lower profile tires will be very different; usually much heavier feeling particularly at low speeds.

3. The power steering may or may not have similar levels of boost between LR and P models, but due to the tire differences alone, we can expect them to feel different, even with the same boost. All of the cars I modified with stickier, lower profile tires had unchanged steering, and ALWAYS felt heavier at low speeds. There's less flex in the shorter sidewall, so you feel the road and cornering forces more directly. For sporty driving, that's a good thing.

So yes, I agree with everything you're finding. Tire changes can and do make a huge difference in both feel and performance. I would say the tire change is a large majority of what you're feeling. The extra 90 kg of front motor / gearbox / controller weight also changes feel, but probably less than the tires.

What you're feeling is normal and expected.

Drive a BMW 330i versus an BMW M3 some time. Same difference.


P.S. I find the feel of Model 3 Performance with the Performance Upgrade option to be superb. It's sporty, accurate, responsive without being overly harsh. In fact it rides very well over bad roads. It also sticks like glue in hard turns. It's incredibly hard to get that kind of tuning right. Tesla did. Very impressive.

It's very easy to make a car that will stick like glue, but rides like a bucking bronco over less than perfect roads. BMW M3 in track mode can jar your teeth loose over a bad road. So can many modified sporty cars. I'm not sure many people appreciate how good the ride/handling compromise in the M3P with PUO is.

 

[Ohms Law]

Question for everyone, what setting for the steering are you using?
For Model S I prefer Standart, for Model X Comfort and for Model 3 I find it unbearable in anything but Comfort, I wish there would be another setting such as Super Comfort.
Model 3 suspension geometry has a lot of Caster as any sports car should. and that makes steering harder to turn.