Supercharging cost same as GAS

[loquitur]

I live in San Francisco where the comparisons in favor of Tesla are way better, so your mileage will vary.
(Note I am an apartment dweller w/o even 110V in my assigned space, so I *only* supercharge.)

E.g. residential electricity here is .26 per kWh, but 250MW supercharging is only .21 per kWh
before 10am, so that's a no-brainer, like only $15 for a 286-mile model 3 "tank".
Stinky gas is $4.50+ per gallon here -- no one with a Tesla will ever go back.

Despite that, your 51mpg Camry Hybrid would never get that around our town --I also have
a Prius in the family; in SF that 50mpg is never more than 40mpg (so 7x4.50 = $31.50
for the same $15 "tank") because of weak regen
together with EPA overstating gas cars more than it does Tesla. Bottom line is that in expensive
SF super chargers are noticeably cheaper than even the most gas-sipping buggy.

 

[Watts_Up]

36 miles cost $3.00. My son's Sonata gets 36mpg on a gallon that cost $3.00 feels like a ripoff

In addition, EV electricty is not taxed like gas.

Sometime, EV will also get additional taxes to build roads...

How much will then be the cost of charging at home or using a public charger?

 

[LoudMusic]

In addition, EV electricty is not taxed like gas.

Sometime, EV will also get additional taxes to build roads...

How much will then be the cost of charging at home or using a public charger?

I suspect they'll find other ways to tax it rather than taxing the electricity. It's so easy to produce electricity and put it into the car without the tax man knowing that it's happening. The easiest way to tax would probably be from odometer readings. Or they might just use flat tax rates like they are now. It's $200/year in Arkansas for EVs.

The problem with either of those is the state that collects that fee isn't necessarily where the vehicle is being used. I registered my car in Arkansas and paid that EV fee, and have driven my car over 26,000 miles for that first year. But I'd estimate less than 5,000 miles of it was actually in Arkansas. So I've been using roads in a dozen other states without directly contributing to their road maintenance.

I have spent a metric **** ton of money on other goods and services in these states, so I feel they're still coming out ahead, though.

 

[spokey]

Yes, but presumably others are paying in other states and using your AK roads for 'free'.

It's a myth that gas taxes pay for the roads. Yes, they contribute. But it's a fraction. I haven't looked in a couple of years but the last time I looked gas tax was about 30%. Another 20% was user fees. That is registration, license, tolls, etc. The other half was from the general coffers. This was at the national level. I didn't research any states but I think there was enough data there to get the same types of numbers state by state.

May depend on how old your prius is. My brother has a regular one and a V and they only get in the low 40s. But I know a couple of people with new plug-ins and they are claiming the 70s. I think Toyota did something to give a good boost a few years ago. At least the Camry jumped with, I think, the 2018 version. I haven't found any documentation supporting my theory on Camry regen, but experience suggests you can get decent regen. You have to use the brake not just take your foot off the accelerator. Just coasting doesn't do much. But a light brake effort seems to be best. The stopping at that point is similar to taking my foot off the MY pedal. They probably have bigger batteries too. My brother can only get the Prius a mile or two on battery only. I can get the Camry 3-4 if I'm careful.

 

[walnotr]

Yes, but presumably others are paying in other states and using your AK roads for 'free'.

Not to be snarky, but:
AK = Alaska
AL = Alabama
AR = Arkansas

 

[spokey]

that's fine. I stand corrected

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I suspect they'll find other ways to tax it rather than taxing the electricity. It's so easy to produce electricity and put it into the car without the tax man knowing that it's happening. The easiest way to tax would probably be from odometer readings. Or they might just use flat tax rates like they are now. It's $200/year in Arkansas for EVs.

The problem with either of those is the state that collects that fee isn't necessarily where the vehicle is being used. I registered my car in Arkansas and paid that EV fee, and have driven my car over 26,000 miles for that first year. But I'd estimate less than 5,000 miles of it was actually in Arkansas. So I've been using roads in a dozen other states without directly contributing to their road maintenance.

I have spent a metric **** ton of money on other goods and services in these states, so I feel they're still coming out ahead, though.

Sensible countries are looking at pricing per unit distance. It doesn't matter that it's imperfect, just that it doesn't completely suck, and that it's simple.
You can tax public charging as well (e.g. Iowa), but that hits people who depend on it.

The sooner we can agree on the balance of factors in cost of road use (when, where, what, how far), and whether distance driven is significant then we can say whether we need to charge by unit distance.

We have the legally-controlled VIN, we have the legally-controlled odometer and we have a database of vehicle models searchable by VIN if you want to adjust for curb weight (and we can improve that database, instead of it just being an industry solution.)

Once it's decided we need per unit distance fees, we can make it easier, by agreeing standards that make it easy to read VIN and odometer electronically.
And if people really consider the cross-border imperfection to be a significant problem, we can try to address that as well. (Although we never addressed the cross-border fuel tax problem).

 

[spokey]

I think distance is the obvious answer. I'm pretty sure that trucks pay according to weight based on the heavy truck being more damaging to the roadway. Don't know if a 4400lb MY vs a Toyota Corolla is significantly different but if it is, we should throw weight in as well.

 

[Silicon Desert]

In my area, charging at home, the wife's ICE car (that gets about 38 mpg), cost 3 times more (per mile) than my MX. Cheap rates here.

 

[srs5694]

I think distance is the obvious answer. I'm pretty sure that trucks pay according to weight based on the heavy truck being more damaging to the roadway. Don't know if a 4400lb MY vs a Toyota Corolla is significantly different but if it is, we should throw weight in as well.

I don't know what big-rig trucks are charged, aside from their "gas" (really diesel, in most cases) taxes, but as I understand it, road damage is roughly correlated to the fourth power of the vehicle's weight. (Actually, the calculation needs to be done per axle, not for total vehicle weight.) That is, if one vehicle is twice as heavy as another, the heavier vehicle causes 2^4, or 16, times as much damage as the lighter vehicle, assuming the same number of axles and equal weight distribution. A big-rig weighs tens of times as much as a typical car. This means that big-rigs cause literally hundreds, if not over a thousand, times as much damage as a typical car.

Of course, that's just looking at damage to roads. Roads need to be built before they can be damaged by use, and cars get the benefit of roads' existence. There are certainly residential streets where big trucks seldom venture, so it's only fair to ask car owners to help pay for their construction and maintenance. The lion's share of the damage to roads because of their use, though, is caused by big trucks, not cars. The question of how to tax different types of vehicles to pay for road construction and maintenance is a complex one that involves judgment calls about not just measurable things like road damage but also the need/desirability of different types of roads. Still, I suspect that most people don't realize just how much more damage big trucks do than personal cars (even EVs).

 

[spokey]

It's my understanding, and may be very wrong, but that they pay registration based on weight. And the whole truck scale stuff is because of that. To make sure they aren't hauling more weight than they've 'paid' for.

 

[Ezmendriz]

My previous car was a VW Passat. Now my son use that car. He can get around 400 miles from the tank. a full tank cost ~$40 to $50 depending on gas prices. Using the same trip I have to charge 2 times costing me between $12-$16. so minimum it cost me ~$8 less at the end of the trip if I always supercharge ~.25 kwh. I recently did a trip thru Indiana. there it only cost ~.12 -.15 kwh. I was amaze to find out I recharge my Y from 10 to 90 for ~$6.

 

[spokey]

Just used supercharging for the second time a couple weeks ago. I did less well .

Using teslafi for trip stats

So it is just happenstance that my trip is approximately a 'tank' of electricity for the MY. Charge for those miles at that rate is about 27.50. My previous ride was a Subaru Outback which claimed my lifetime average 30.8 mpg. At our current $3.30 / gal, that would have cost $33.27. So the MY was a bit cheaper but not much. You could argue I should not use .35/kWH as I started with a home charged SOC of 100%. But at least in this case the charge is a bit more than a 'tank' for total miles that although a bit less than the EPA 'tank' is actually a bit more. At least my understanding is the the Rate figure is a calculation of what the EPA would be.

At the home charging rate, if I didn't have any loss in the charging, I pay around an average of .185 / kW. So the price would be about $14.5. Arguably I charged further than I needed to but I'll learn how to tailor that better.

 

[cpa]

It's my understanding, and may be very wrong, but that they pay registration based on weight. And the whole truck scale stuff is because of that. To make sure they aren't hauling more weight than they've 'paid' for.

There is an annual use tax collected by the IRS on semis that >55,000 pounds GVW:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f2290.pdf

The tax collected is pretty small, all things considered. And it is unclear if these funds are earmarked or just go into the politicians' pockets for other stuff.