Seriously calm down. Read the law. Someone posted it a few pages back. Read it. It seems pretty obvious that this is a reasonable interpretation of the law. Tesla was positioning in their blog post. They weren't testifying under oath. They knew this was coming and were trying to get the NJ legislature to amend the law before Christie took executive action.
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Tesla Sales Banned in New Jersey... hopefully not for long!
- Thread starter mpt
- Start date
Seriously calm down. Read the law. Someone posted it a few pages back. Read it. It seems pretty obvious that this is a reasonable interpretation of the law. Tesla was positioning in their blog post. They weren't testifying under oath. They knew this was coming and were trying to get the NJ legislature to amend the law before Christie took executive action.
The way I see it, to rephrase those who believe this will not end well for the dealers:
If the dealerships ignore Tesla, they lose market share. If they fight Tesla, they stand to lose everything. They can't do nothing, so they are doomed.
also Curt, could you link us up again w those 2 (or 3) articles from last year about 'rent seekers'? Great stuff that everyone here should be up to speed on. Thx ! ML
If the dealerships ignore Tesla, they lose market share. If they fight Tesla, they stand to lose everything. They can't do nothing, so they are doomed.
also Curt, could you link us up again w those 2 (or 3) articles from last year about 'rent seekers'? Great stuff that everyone here should be up to speed on. Thx ! ML
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I just looked at a good number of news websites to read reactions from those who are not as avid about Tesla as those on this forum are. And...I found....
good ol' Fox News. There are as of right now 52 comments. FIFTY of them are dergoatory toward NJ and the NJCAR. One says since Tesla shortly will go bankrupt it doesn't matter; one says no one buys a Tesla anyway.
So - even the Fox News readers share our side on this matter. Heh!
good ol' Fox News. There are as of right now 52 comments. FIFTY of them are dergoatory toward NJ and the NJCAR. One says since Tesla shortly will go bankrupt it doesn't matter; one says no one buys a Tesla anyway.
So - even the Fox News readers share our side on this matter. Heh!
Can Tesla sue the state of New Jersey? For damages? That would get some media attention.
Or maybe a future Tesla buyer. Sue the state for preventing them from buying the car they want. Impinging on their freedoms and such...
Here is a thread on that article, started by the author himself: Strangling Innovation: Tesla versus “Rent Seekers”
fderheide
Member
I will buy a Tesla no matter where it is sold. I hope E. Musk gives the finger to Texas and Arizona as well. I wish Tesla continued success as this will make these decisions so much more fun later when voters want that 40k Tesla that's wins consumer reports and motor trend car of the year in 2017 and can't get it locally because their governor wants them to buy a car from japan.
I'm a republican. Christine appears to be losing party support at every turn so you won't see him on the presidential ballot anyway. Furthermore, This is yet another example of the poor decisions that continue to plague the party and will cost republicans elections. Way to go guys. Keep telling people what's best for them. Communism is alive and well in the USA.
I'm a republican. Christine appears to be losing party support at every turn so you won't see him on the presidential ballot anyway. Furthermore, This is yet another example of the poor decisions that continue to plague the party and will cost republicans elections. Way to go guys. Keep telling people what's best for them. Communism is alive and well in the USA.
mitch672
Active Member
Jack Rickard from EVTV recommended "Internal Combustion", I have a few copies on order, applies to what's going on here.
Internal Combustion: How Corporations and Governments Addicted the World to Oil and Derailed the Alternatives: Edwin Black: 9780914153115: Amazon.com: Books
Internal Combustion: How Corporations and Governments Addicted the World to Oil and Derailed the Alternatives: Edwin Black: 9780914153115: Amazon.com: Books
Look - I agree it is outrageous to keep Tesla from pursuing their business model. But the law seems pretty clear, if very antiquated. Read this comment by Tesla and response:
COMMENT: Mr. Chen states that the proposed amendments are inconsistent
with statutory intent and that the Franchise Practices Act “does not and cannot apply to companies that do not have any franchisees, such as Tesla....”
RESPONSE:The Commission disagrees. The Franchise Practices Act, N.J.S.A. 56:10-1, et seq., was established not only to protect franchisees in their relationships with franchisors, but also to establish a fair system for the sale of new motor vehicles, which system, in New Jersey, involves the sale of new motor vehicles through franchised dealers. N.J.S.A. 56:10-26 defines a “motor vehicle franchisor” as “a person engaged in the business of manufacturing, assembling or distributing new motor vehicles, or importing into the United States new motor vehicles manufactured or assembled in a foreign country, who will under normal business conditions during the year, manufacture, assemble, distribute or import at least 10 new motor vehicles.” This definition applies to Tesla, notwithstanding Tesla’s business model. The Franchise Practices Act further prohibits the sale of motor vehicles by a “motor vehicle franchisor” such as Tesla to a consumer, except through a motor vehicle franchisee. N.J.S.A. 56:10-27. Motor vehicle franchisors are also prohibited from operating a place of business as a motor vehicle franchisee, except under very limited conditions, which are not applicable to Tesla. N.J.S.A. 56:10-28.
Norbert
TSLA will win
I'm not a lawyer, but it doesn't seem clear to me at all. On the contrary. The quoted passages (above) appear to simply *assume* that such a person is a franchisor, part of a franchise business relationship. And then goes on to say that such a franchisor may only sell through a franchisee. The second rule that a franchisor can sell only through a franchisee would mean that a franchisor can't do both. However, if the initial assumption is wrong, and such a person is not a franchisor at all, then the Franchise Practices Act does not apply. So as a non-lawyer I think one can argue that the law is incomplete in that it does not consider (and therefore does not apply to) manufacturers who are not franchisors.
The quoted text does not appear to explicitly require a manufacturer to be a franchisor.
In MA, Tesla created a shell company, called something like "Tesla Motors Massachusetts" that is wholly owned by Tesla Motors. It was the formal legal opinion of the Town of Natick's legal counsel that "Tesla Motors Massachusetts" (which was applying for the Class I Dealer's License) should be considered a distinct legal entity and, therefore, fulfilling the letter of the MA law.
I wonder why Tesla hasn't taken a parallel action in New Jersey?
I wonder why Tesla hasn't taken a parallel action in New Jersey?
THIS. For those who didn't watch the 1.5 hours of Elon testifying on Capitol Hill on the EELV program and the monopoly currently in place and the battle of the witless, hypocritical crony's (read Senator Shelby)....it is fascinating. A discussion and link is on the Space X thread. The NJ ruling by a bureaucratic government board at the direction of a marginalized and mocked Republican governor plays into Tesla's hands. It makes a $30 billion dollar company the underdog. It makes them the good guys. In Elon's congressional testimony, he elaborated about how Space X could save the government 11.5 Billion dollars over the current 36 fixed contracts awarded to the consortium of Northrop/Boeing. The nonsense spouted by Northrop/Boeing and Senator Shelby makes the hypocrisy of Christie's speech at CPAC lauding free enterprise, innovation and unfettered access to markets days before barring an innovative American company from exercising free enterprise and using government to restrict their access to markets pale by comparison. It's like Elon is a hypocrisy enema specifically designed for the discomfort of portions of our public square.
That being said....while this is a short-term win for Tesla from a PR sense, Max Weber was prescient in his lauding of the power of the bureaucracy - and bureaucracy coupled with $ and desperation of the dealerships is a potent potion. I would be interested in Tesla's endgame. It is interesting that the other 2 "defeats" are now under consideration for the gigafactory. I hope Tesla can continue to highlight these iniquities and (putting my tinfoil hat on) Elon never catches a cold as he is loudly, publicly and many times effectively challenging a large part of the entrenched business and political interests in this country. It's a blast to watch and I'm cheering him on, I just hope it doesn't end up to be tilting at windmills.
Cheers.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Why do people keep saying this? Sales tax is charged in the state where the car is registered, not where it's sold (except in CA, I think they charge sales tax regardless if you pick up at the factory).
Because the NJ law specifically stipulates the franchisees can't own more than 1% of the manufacturing/franchiser company.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
NJ action to block Tesla sales today 2pm - Can you attend?
New Jersey is a "Blue" state, and almost no one likes car dealerships, so I'm not at all surprised that the Fox News readership is on Tesla's side on this matter.
The only thing that's going to settle this permanently is legislation or a court decision at the federal level that preempts any state laws.
Tesla should fight and stall in each state where the dealer associations challenge them, but there must be a long term federal level goal.
New Jersey is a "Blue" state, and almost no one likes car dealerships, so I'm not at all surprised that the Fox News readership is on Tesla's side on this matter.
The only thing that's going to settle this permanently is legislation or a court decision at the federal level that preempts any state laws.
Tesla should fight and stall in each state where the dealer associations challenge them, but there must be a long term federal level goal.
Sounds like an opportunity for some creative thinking. How about TMC (bad example, we probably own more than 1% of TSLA collectively) or someone from TMC apply for a Tesla dealer license/franchise and run it at similar cost to other Tesla stores (i.e., not setting higher prices, not keeping large inventories, etc.). In the end, even if Tesla doesn't own the franchise themselves, Tesla essentially carries out its direct sales model and the consumer doesn't have to jump though a bunch of hoops to take delivery or have service/repair work done. The downside is, you may not get paid very much, but I'm sure some of you would love to manage/"own" your own Tesla store
pbleic,
I generally like Governor Christie. I remember one interview, however, where he was asked about Buffet's ideas in raising taxes for millionaires. Christie, "I think Warren Buffett needs to shut up."
Obviously, not a very persuasive argument by the governor.
This, is what your comment reads like to me.
It was a response to the tone of your original comment.
Like it or not (and I certainly do not), Tesla needs to change the legislation or get a Commerce clause Supreme Court ruling to change this.
This quote, from the Forbes article tells the story:
Christie spokesman Kevin Roberts said, “Since Tesla first began operating in New Jersey one year ago, it was made clear that the company would need to engage the Legislature on a bill to establish their new direct-sales operations under New Jersey law. This administration does not find it appropriate to unilaterally change the way cars are sold in New Jersey without legislation, and Tesla has been aware of this position since the beginning.”
apvbguy
Banned
the 10th amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
anyone looking towards federal intervention should consider this. the only way the feds could get involved if a case can be made that the state laws inhibit interstate commerce, and that would be a long battle
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
anyone looking towards federal intervention should consider this. the only way the feds could get involved if a case can be made that the state laws inhibit interstate commerce, and that would be a long battle
pbleic, I don't take on face value either Tesla or the Christie administration. here, as before, you describe the Governor's office's characterization of the situation as "telling the story" (the earlier post I made which you described as having a "tone" was where I pointed out that TM described this ruling today as a change to the law, in contrast to contentions that it was simply enforcing the existing law). That's not a matter of tone, that's a matter of seeing this as an open issue rather than assuming Tesla's contentions are not relevant.
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