Tesla Sales Banned in New Jersey... hopefully not for long!

[Norbert]

But that's the point. The statutes are in conflict and thus can be interpreted as desired by the MVC. Which, of course, is why either the legislature or the courts must weigh in.

If that is really the only point, then I don't see how the MVC can take such a minor conflict in the unexplained wording in two second-level definitions, and use it for such a far-reaching interpretation. As far as my understanding goes, there isn't enough conflict to make it a matter of opinion. Did you look at the statutes and come to the view that there is such a large conflict, or are you just saying that this is the point where the MVC chose to argue for the dealer association NJCAR's claimed interpretation? Of course, yes, at this point it will be the NJ Superior Court's turn to speak on the whole matter. So it'd be interesting to read Tesla's filing.

At the same time, it appears the NJ legislature may be willing to act in favor of supporting direct sales (non-franchised) dealerships such as by Tesla (perhaps limited to EVs in general), independently of what the regulations have said in the past.

 

[HankLloydRight]

The law is pretty clear: In order to get a license in NJ to sell new cars, you have to produce your franchise agreement/contract. Tesla can not produce such a document, ergo, according to the law, as written, can not fulfill the requirements for a license. That's it.

 

[Norbert]

The law is pretty clear: In order to get a license in NJ to sell new cars, you have to produce your franchise agreement/contract. Tesla can not produce such a document, ergo, according to the law, as written, can not fulfill the requirements for a license. That's it.

No, the requirement to submit "a copy of the applicant’s franchise agreement(s)" comes only with the proposed changes to N.J.A.C. 13:21-15.2(m). This is part of the proposed amendments now taking effect April 15th, part of the changes we are discussing here. It is *not* part of the previously existing law.

Where did you get that impression?

 

[apvbguy]

At the same time, it appears the NJ legislature may be willing to act in favor of supporting direct sales (non-franchised) dealerships such as by Tesla (perhaps limited to EVs in general), independently of what the regulations have said in the past.

it is the legislature that has the power to enact new laws and alter existing laws.

 

[yobigd20]

more reasons why state bans on direct manufacturer sales should be eliminated: http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/eag/246374.htm#N_5_ or pdf format: http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/eag/246374.pdf

 

[Norbert]

it is the legislature that has the power to enact new laws and alter existing laws.

Certainly. (However, the MVC isn't.)

 

[brianman]

No company should be forced to become a franchisor just so that the franchise laws can apply to it.

This is starting to sound a lot like healthcare and the taxation/penalty "disagreement".

Replace "franchisor" with "customer" and "franchise" with "taxation laws on such customers".

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this is just a lot of misinformed speculation.

This is misinformed speculation.

Putting on my moderator's hat now... cut it out! That is bordering on a personal attack, which is not permitted in this forum. You have been warned.

everyone is entitled to their opinions and at this point the courts will determine which opinions have any validity

The word misinformed in both of the quotes above Doug_G's are a characterization of the poster, not of the topic at hand.

He's saying that you need to make your point about the topic not about the poster. Just craft the words more carefully. Nobody is saying opinions should be held back here, just that it should be opinions and the topic discussed not the people having them.

As an example:
"The Foo party platform is crazy, IMO, and here's why..."

This is quite different from:
"Foo party members are crazy, IMO, and here's why..."

Disclaimers:
1. Sorry, mods, a political example was the easiest.
2. I have no affiliation with the Foo party and have no official stance on its positions or candidates. The same is true for the Bar party.

 

[apvbguy]

Certainly. (However, the MVC isn't.)

the MVC can and will interpret the regs on the books
what the NJ MVC is doing is acting just just like the US EPA does, the president has affirmed this way of governance

 

[Norbert]

the MVC can and will interpret the regs on the books
what the NJ MVC is doing is acting just just like the US EPA does, the president has affirmed this way of governance

If you are actually interested in the matter, I recommend reading NJSA 56:10, the "Franchise Practices Act". (Be careful to notice where 56:9 ends and 56:11 begins).

Among other things, you will find that it is really about the relationship between franchisor and franchisee.

EDIT: As far as the details of this discussion are concerned, in previous posts in this thread, note that some of the text will change (or perhaps already has changed), due to the committee action which we are discussing.

 

[tslas]

This is way deeper than I thought..

Read Tesla's whole apeal at following link.
Basically, Tesla wanted to open 3rd store in Springfield NJ and Tesla applied for the permit in June 2013.
They(NJMVC) had been stonewalling Tesla since then and lying through their teeth basically saying everything is fine and then backstabbing them in the end.

I am infuriated.
I called and sent emails to my assemblyman and state senator about supporting bills allowing direct sells.
People in NJ, please pressure your assemblyman and senators likewise.

Read Page 4 and 5.

Tesla Motors appeals sales ban in New Jersey

--updated
direct link to apeal
Tesla vs. New Jersey Auto Dealers Superior Court Appeal

 

[AlMc]

This is way deeper than I thought..

Read Tesla's whole apeal at following link.
Basically, Tesla wanted to open 3rd store in Springfield NJ and Tesla applied for the permit in June 2013.
They(NJMVC) had been stonewalling Tesla since then and lying through their teeth basically saying everything is fine and then backstabbing them in the end.

I am infuriated.
I called and sent emails to my assemblyman and state senator about supporting bills allowing direct sells.
People in NJ, please pressure your assemblyman and senators likewise.

Read Page 4 and 5.

Tesla Motors appeals sales ban in New Jersey

--updated
direct link to apeal
Tesla vs. New Jersey Auto Dealers Superior Court Appeal

Thanks for the official link. What ticks me off more than pages 4/5 is the 'feeding' of comments from the NJ Dealer rep to the board and their rubber stamping of all his proposals while dismissing Chen's arguments almost 'out of hand'.

If cooler heads do not reach an agreement before hand, the NJ DMV and AutoDealers are going to open Pandora's Box and only have themselves to blame when the whole thing back fires on them. I think TM should hold firm for a very clear law change (no BS about once the EV market reaches a certain percentage of sales) or push it through the legal system and get the whole DMV regulations overturned.

 

[techmaven]

This is way deeper than I thought..

...

They(NJMVC) had been stonewalling Tesla since then and lying through their teeth basically saying everything is fine and then backstabbing them in the end.

I am infuriated.

Thanks for posting this. The backstory is truly infuriating and should have been spread wider in the press.

 

[JohnQ]

If that is really the only point, then I don't see how the MVC can take such a minor conflict in the unexplained wording in two second-level definitions, and use it for such a far-reaching interpretation. As far as my understanding goes, there isn't enough conflict to make it a matter of opinion. Did you look at the statutes and come to the view that there is such a large conflict, or are you just saying that this is the point where the MVC chose to argue for the dealer association NJCAR's claimed interpretation? Of course, yes, at this point it will be the NJ Superior Court's turn to speak on the whole matter. So it'd be interesting to read Tesla's filing.

At the same time, it appears the NJ legislature may be willing to act in favor of supporting direct sales (non-franchised) dealerships such as by Tesla (perhaps limited to EVs in general), independently of what the regulations have said in the past.

I've reviewed the statutes and, yes, I'm suggesting that the minor conflict is the basis for the MVC decision. I'm not saying the MVC interpreted the statutes correctly, just that it is a possible interpretation and that's what they chose to do...likely for obvious political reasons. Ultimately, if the legislature doesn't act to rewrite the statute--and they could rewrite negatively for Tesla--the courts will overturn the statute (my opinion).

 

[Norbert]

I've reviewed the statutes and, yes, I'm suggesting that the minor conflict is the basis for the MVC decision. I'm not saying the MVC interpreted the statutes correctly, just that it is a possible interpretation and that's what they chose to do...likely for obvious political reasons. Ultimately, if the legislature doesn't act to rewrite the statute--and they could rewrite negatively for Tesla--the courts will overturn the statute (my opinion).

The MVC (Motor Vehicle Commission) itself did say that the definition of a term (not a regulation) in 56:10-26 (part of the "Franchise Practices Act") is the basis of its argument. (Though AFAIK it didn't say that is the only basis.) That in itself is actually a known fact, also mentioned in our previous discussion.

Of course, the mere fact that the MVC has announced its interpretation (or probably, NJCAR's interpretation), proves that it is "possible". However, it doesn't appear to hold water, if you look at it in context, and at the FPA as a whole. We had this discussion earlier in this thread, at some length, so I can't repeat all of it it here, without knowing if you perhaps have a different or new point to make, in some specific way, which I might address specifically. Or if you just observe that the MVC has announced that interpretation as its own, as a matter of fact.

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Thanks for posting this. The backstory is truly infuriating and should have been spread wider in the press.

Yes, that backstory adds a new dimension to it. So much for "fairness" being the goal of this change. If even remotely true, it feels more like that was done because they thought they could get away with it.

 

[rjcbox]

It looked like a partisan political argument was about to get rolling, so I banished a few posts to Politics - Quarantine Thread - Page 17

Thank you for cleaning that political crap off threads and for the work you mods do

 

[Doug_G]

Thank you for cleaning that political crap off threads and for the work you mods do

Thank you! :smile: It goes without saying that political-oriented threads take up a substantial amount of my moderation time. I'm sure some of the other moderators have a similar experience. However, it looks like we are slowly making progress towards more thoughtful and respectful discussions. It gives me hope!

 

[Norbert]

Article by the New Jersey Law Journal, about Tesla's Superior Court case:

http://www.njlawjournal.com/home/id=1202649583184?slreturn=20140304184134

Includes response by the dealer association NJCAR's Appleton:

NJ CAR president James Appleton says he’s “confident that the courts will recognize the compelling state interests in regulating” car sales, namely consumer protection, and “Tesla’s legal challenge will fail.”

The group will look to enter the litigation as an intervenor, Appleton says. Marvin Brauth of Wilentz, Goldman & Spitzer in Woodbridge is NJ CAR’s regular outside counsel, but Appleton says he’s unsure if the firm will handle the Tesla matter.

Why would regulation of car sales (for consumer protection) require a franchise agreement? I'd say it doesn't, as even in New Jersey such regulations exist outside of the "Franchise Practices Act", where they belong.

 

[Doug_G]

And a couple more posts moved to snippiness

 

[DJ Frustration]

Plug In America just sent an action alert to their email list about the Tesla ban in NJ. They're urging everyone to contact Governor Chris Christie and urge him to sign a bill permitting Tesla to sell directly in the state.

I suggest everyone here check out the website and contact Governor Christie, even if you aren't a NJ resident!

Action Page | Plug In America



Tell Gov Christie to stop blocking the bridge to our electric future!

Governor Christie's Tesla ban must not stand!

New Jersey Governor Chris Christie recently said “We have a...problem in this country because government is trying to control the free market.” In Chris Christie’s New Jersey, that’s true!

Tesla Motors is the first successful new American car company in decades. And it’s electric. Yet the Christie-controlled New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission recently kicked Tesla out of the state!

Legislation is being offered in the New Jersey Legislature to reverse this decision.

NJ A2986 & S1898 will prevent Christie from blocking the bridge to our electric future. The bill opens up the market and allows electric vehicle manufacturers like Tesla to do business in the state.

Please use the form or link below to demand that Governor Christie sign the bill!

Overturning Chrisie's ban on Tesla in New Jersey will let other states know we will not allow them to block the electric cars that are our future.

If Governor Christie doesn't act, Tesla will be unable to sell in New Jersey after April 15th! Speak up and challenge Christie to support the future!

Thanks for taking action!

Richard Kelly
President, Plug In America

Please visit the Plug In America website if you live in NJ. If you are outside of New Jersey please send your letter through the form on this page:
http://www.state.nj.us/governor/contact/

Suggested text as follows:

Subject: Please sign NJ A2986 and S1898

Dear Governor Christie,
As an electric vehicle supporter, I urge you to sign NJ A2986 and S1898. As you said: government shouldn't try to control the free market, so please sign this legislation and let Tesla and other EV manufacturers sell their vehicles in NJ.

Thank you,

[Insert Your Name]

 

[EdA]

Thanks, done!