Tesla (Solar City) lease coming to and end choosing among the options

[GregBallantyne]

I went with option A. I tried to negotiate but couldn't get anywhere. So far, so good.

I had zero return on my effort to negotiate or reason some years back with a lease partway thru, despite the deed change wrinkle. I concluded the choices were between doing things their way or defaulting to see what would happen....

 

[rando]

Makes sense. I wonder if they would bother to pull a permit for the removal. If not, 'repairing' the then nonfunctional system (because it was removed) might eliminate the need for a new permit and NEM3 interconnect agreement. The 'repaired' system would still need to have about the same peak power and export capacity as the original (when new).

 

[CrazyRabbit]

I would let tesla remove the system. They will not, if they do then replace the system with new system of same size. No approval needed form utility.

 

[wwu123]

I went with option A. I tried to negotiate but couldn't get anywhere. So far, so good.

Congrats on buying out the old system at $1/watt. I don't know if you mentioned here how long was the original lease (how old are the panels)?

Just read an article about a 30-year old PV array in France that was just retired, the panels were tested and still delivered about 75% of their original performance (and were at around 90% when tested around the 15-year mark), I think they said avg 0.66% degradation/year, well better than original specs. Not necessarily going to be the case for the inverter, wiring or balance of system, but it's impressive how reliable and performant PV panels have turned out to be sitting in very harsh exposed environments.

Lot of value in just keeping them going, except maybe the opportunity cost to put newer more efficient panels on the same space - but NEM3 for new panels is not directly comparable to old panels on NEM1. $1/watt is great value.

EDIT: I re-read and you did say 15-year lease... that means 5 more years on NEM1?

 

[arnolddeleon]

Congrats on buying out the old system at $1/watt. I don't know if you mentioned here how long was the original lease (how old are the panels)?

Just read an article about a 30-year old PV array in France that was just retired, the panels were tested and still delivered about 75% of their original performance (and were at around 90% when tested around the 15-year mark), I think they said avg 0.66% degradation/year, well better than original specs. Not necessarily going to be the case for the inverter, wiring or balance of system, but it's impressive how reliable and performant PV panels have turned out to be sitting in very harsh exposed environments.

Lot of value in just keeping them going, except maybe the opportunity cost to put newer more efficient panels on the same space - but NEM3 for new panels is not directly comparable to old panels on NEM1. $1/watt is great value.

EDIT: I re-read and you did say 15-year lease... that means 5 more years on NEM1?

I'm on NEM-MT (which translates to effectively NEM2). What is unclear is how PG&E will treat the system. I have a newer system (2021) and it appears that the NEM clock reset when they were installed. I don't think they can split the systems (they certainly don't have instrumentation installed to do so). So, I think I either get penalized (oldest PV system determines NEM status) or everything gets treated with the dates of the newest system. We shall see. I suspect they really don't have a good process in place for sites with multiple PV systems. My guess is there are not that many crazy people like me with multiple PV systems at one site.

 

[Vines]

I'm on NEM-MT (which translates to effectively NEM2). What is unclear is how PG&E will treat the system. I have a newer system (2021) and it appears that the NEM clock reset when they were installed. I don't think they can split the systems (they certainly don't have instrumentation installed to do so). So, I think I either get penalized (oldest PV system determines NEM status) or everything gets treated with the dates of the newest system. We shall see. I suspect they really don't have a good process in place for sites with multiple PV systems. My guess is there are not that many crazy people like me with multiple PV systems at one site.

We are just going through our first expansion, where the customer will be keeping NEM2.0 for the old system and NEM 3.0 for the new system and the whole thing is under NEM -MT.

It isn't an easy process currently and we will be blazing this trail to see just what hoops we need to jump through. In the future with specific inverters designed for this, it should be an easier path.

 

[BGbreeder]

We are just going through our first expansion, where the customer will be keeping NEM2.0 for the old system and NEM 3.0 for the new system and the whole thing is under NEM -MT.

It isn't an easy process currently and we will be blazing this trail to see just what hoops we need to jump through. In the future with specific inverters designed for this, it should be an easier path.

Which of the various possible NEM-MT options is being pursued?

All the best,

BG

 

[miimura]

I believe you have to separately meter the new system. It seems to me that you would want to also put all your loads on that meter too so you would self-consume from that meter as much as possible.

 

[Vines]

Which of the various possible NEM-MT options is being pursued?

All the best,

BG

Our interconnection department is handling the details, but what @miimura posted is a basic requirement. The Multiple Tarrifs (-MT) are NEM 2.0 and NEM 3.0. There are some unknowns so I won't pretend I understand it all yet until we complete this once at least.

 

[BGbreeder]

I was under the impression that one could either add a meter, or a control relay, or use an approved export control device to help meet the NEM-MT, but that's why I asked.

All the best,

BG

 

[Vines]

I was under the impression that one could either add a meter, or a control relay, or use an approved export control device to help meet the NEM-MT, but that's why I asked.

All the best,

BG

I agree, and understood the same. When the rubber meets the road it seems PG&E is giving different answers.

 

[miimura]

I agree, and understood the same. When the rubber meets the road it seems PG&E is giving different answers.

Ugh. So typical. I doubt they actually know how to implement what's stated in the tariff at any given field office.

 

[BGbreeder]

I agree, and understood the same. When the rubber meets the road it seems PG&E is giving different answers.

Wow, what a shocker! (Not!)

Good luck!

All the best,

BG

 

[SanDiegoM3]

I’d go option C. If you were on a 15 year lease then you really only have 5 years of NEM 2.0 left on a 2.5kwh system, or maybe NEM 1, that would both convert to NEM 3 anyway in 5 years. Your other systems would be unaffected and in theory you could simply replace with like equipment and never be noticed.

Given Tesla’s poor staffing levels and desire to cut costs everywhere there is certainly no benefit to Tesla coming out, uninstalling, repairing the roof, and taking the liability of repairing the roof.

A 15 year old system is effectively bulk scrap in today’s environment. A crew of three guys spending 8 hours plus disposal is likely approaching $1500. They really think they can net $1k on that old system when new solar installs are effectively dead? I doubt it.

Call their bluff and act like you’re doing them a service, but don’t bring up any negotiations yet, just pick Option C. If they actually schedule people to come out and not six months into the future then change your mind or something - why would they turn down money?

Wait till last minute on their bluff. How big are your other systems and what install dates? Also, have you contacted your utility and asked them a simple question of what happens if your inverter dies, or a panel goes bad, and you can’t find an exact replacement due to age of the unit and whether it affects your NEM status if replaced with identical capacity?

 

[Paul-CA]

I contacted Tesla about my options. Here they are:

1. Purchase the system as is: ~ $4500. No app monitoring, no warranty.
2. Extend the lease another 5 years for around $100 / month. Under Tesla warranty.
3. They pull the system off the roof and patch the roof and will provide one year warranty on the roof.

I'm bummed about the app monitoring not being provided. They will say they will give me manual instructions on how to check the system to see if it is producing. Does anyone know of a 3rd party provider that does the monitoring? Not sure what my options here are on providing my own monitoring.

 

[arnolddeleon]

I contacted Tesla about my options. Here they are:

1. Purchase the system as is: ~ $4500. No app monitoring, no warranty.
2. Extend the lease another 5 years for around $100 / month. Under Tesla warranty.
3. They pull the system off the roof and patch the roof and will provide one year warranty on the roof.

I'm bummed about the app monitoring not being provided. They will say they will give me manual instructions on how to check the system to see if it is producing. Does anyone know of a 3rd party provider that does the monitoring? Not sure what my options here are on providing my own monitoring.

That's fascinating about the app monitoring. When I purchased my system, it continued to be in my app.

Are you PV only or do you have a Powerwall?

What size is the system? How old?

 

[rando]

I contacted Tesla about my options. Here they are:

1. Purchase the system as is: ~ $4500. No app monitoring, no warranty.
2. Extend the lease another 5 years for around $100 / month. Under Tesla warranty.
3. They pull the system off the roof and patch the roof and will provide one year warranty on the roof.

I'm bummed about the app monitoring not being provided. They will say they will give me manual instructions on how to check the system to see if it is producing. Does anyone know of a 3rd party provider that does the monitoring? Not sure what my options here are on providing my own monitoring.

I'd choose option C and then enjoy the free production for as long as it takes them to come retrieve the system (suspect they never will). If the system uses SolarEdge you may be able to get your monitoring through their web site. Otherwise there are inexpensive site production / consumption monitoring solutions available you could add.

 

[Paul-CA]

That's fascinating about the app monitoring. When I purchased my system, it continued to be in my app.

Are you PV only or do you have a Powerwall?

What size is the system? How old?

PV 5.7, originally a Solar Lease product installed in 2009. So 15 years. The inverter was replaced in 2022.

 

[arnolddeleon]

PV 5.7, originally a Solar Lease product installed in 2009. So 15 years. The inverter was replaced in 2022.

Ok, it sounds relatively straightforward. I wanted so much to take option C. My situation is more complex. I believe that I had my NEM 2.0 clock reset in 2022 when I got additional solar. So, if I wanted to install new PV I would end up with NEM 3.0 for everything.

In your situation you only have 5 years of NEM 2.0 left.

This is how I see it and upside/downside of

Option A): Buy it outright. The primary benefit here is you are buying solar for less than $1/watt. Very roughly, I think it pays back with PG&E rates in less than 2 years. I think it's returning at least $3000 of value/year. Solving the monitoring issue is easy.

Option B): It's a lot like option A, payments are deferred so payment value wise it ends up roughly the same (I didn't do the present value calculation of the payments). The upside is you have a warranty. The downside is you have to make the decision again in 5 years. You will likely have a buyout option again at the end (likely even lower price) or option C.

Option C): I agree with @rando . This was my original plan. Tesla will likely lose money if they send out a crew to do the removal. It's even likely that you can change your mind and go with A or B if they call the bluff. The main catch is you have to ready if they do call the bluff. Worst case is they actually force the removal of the system. So, if you were going to want PV again then you will be in NEM 3.0 (well, you may be able to qualify a repair/replacement that is close enough size). The cost per watt installed will be higher. Basically, the upside is $4500, the downside is spending more money sooner for a new PV system and possibly ending in NEM 3.0 sooner.

I minorly regret not trying option C. In my case the upside was $2500.

 

[wwu123]

Ok, it sounds relatively straightforward. I wanted so much to take option C. My situation is more complex. I believe that I had my NEM 2.0 clock reset in 2022 when I got additional solar. So, if I wanted to install new PV I would end up with NEM 3.0 for everything.

In your situation you only have 5 years of NEM 2.0 left.

This is how I see it and upside/downside of

Option A): Buy it outright. The primary benefit here is you are buying solar for less than $1/watt. Very roughly, I think it pays back with PG&E rates in less than 2 years. I think it's returning at least $3000 of value/year. Solving the monitoring issue is easy.

Option B): It's a lot like option A, payments are deferred so payment value wise it ends up roughly the same (I didn't do the present value calculation of the payments). The upside is you have a warranty. The downside is you have to make the decision again in 5 years. You will likely have a buyout option again at the end (likely even lower price) or option C.

Option C): I agree with @rando . This was my original plan. Tesla will likely lose money if they send out a crew to do the removal. It's even likely that you can change your mind and go with A or B if they call the bluff. The main catch is you have to ready if they do call the bluff. Worst case is they actually force the removal of the system. So, if you were going to want PV again then you will be in NEM 3.0 (well, you may be able to qualify a repair/replacement that is close enough size). The cost per watt installed will be higher. Basically, the upside is $4500, the downside is spending more money sooner for a new PV system and possibly ending in NEM 3.0 sooner.

I minorly regret not trying option C. In my case the upside was $2500.

I agree with folks that Option C is a lose-lose if Tesla actually sends out labor to remove the system and patch the roof. I wonder if they might resort to trying something more basic (unless customer actually insists on having the equipment removed from the roof) - like just pulling the string inverter, or even more asinine, just flipping off a breaker, to "disable" the system. In which case, it would be relative simple, or perhaps trivial, to re-enable the system once they've washed their hands of it.

Hope someone chooses Option C soon, eager to see what happens!