Tesla surprises with a $4800 bill on existing $5300 install contract

[Vines]

Hope it all works out for you. Tesla certainly has the cheapest prices up front.

However this comes with customer risks as well. Not all companies will eat a $5k service upgrade because of a mistake they made.

 

[bayareaever]

Looking at a service panel and thinking "Mine is like this so yours must be..." will get you into trouble.

Its even bigger trouble because many folks do not know whats right, so think something working and hasnt failed, is safe.

Because most residences don't have any loads over 100A continuous there are rarely any case of melted busbars either, even when someone does something non compliant. Everyone should do what they feel is right for their own level of safety.

I personally will not allow a non listed connection to a MSP. We simply have too much work to do things that are questionable. If your panel says 100A max, I design partial home backup with the 100% rule.

Interesting things about 200A Center fed panels.
Most often they are really a pair of 100A bus bars connected to a pair of 100A ganged breakers functioning as the 200A main breaker. This overall makes a 200A panel, but no 200A connection is possible on the distribution side.
Just because a breaker or subfeed lug fits does not mean it is rated for what you are doing with it.

Most people think "If the breaker fits it works right?" Actually no, the breakers allowed in a main panel are labeled on the sticker. There are cases where a 225A set of lugs will work and be safe and there are cases where it will fit but not be a safe 225A connection to the bus.

Some jurisdictions will allow quite a bit of leeway here, mostly because its not something they don't realize is an issue.

Here is another example of a great 200A MSP - SC3040M200F Series M02. Its a 225 A service that will take a 200A breaker on the bus.
The one @BrettS is showing could be rated for this lugs, from the copper buss I suspect its one of the nicer versions. Only the sticker will tell.

The service of @bayareaever will certainly take a 100A max breaker on the bus so likely this will end up being a partial home backup, using the 100% rule. Whole home backup would be tough in this case, regardless of the PW quantity, unless you were willing to go to a 100A max service

The service of @pgrovetom1 looks to be questionable as to whether that 225A subfeed lugs is compliant. If you posted a pic of the sticker it would be clear. Looks to say 100A max breaker on the top left.

Thanks for checking out the pics. I didn’t mention that I’ve already got a PW reservation (intending to combine it with solar and get bundled discount).

They told me, after looking at pictures and before I mentioned installing a heat pump, that 2 PWs could back up the whole house, and they didn’t mention any panel upgrade. I was also told the deposit is fully refundable at any time even though the contract says it isn’t. Who the heck knows??

I guess we all deal with this because of the low prices. The PW quotes I received from the 3rd parties were ridiculous!!

 

[BrettS]

Interesting things about 200A Center fed panels.
Most often they are really a pair of 100A bus bars connected to a pair of 100A ganged breakers functioning as the 200A main breaker. This overall makes a 200A panel, but no 200A connection is possible on the distribution side.
Just because a breaker or subfeed lug fits does not mean it is rated for what you are doing with it.

Here is another example of a great 200A MSP - SC3040M200F Series M02. Its a 225 A service that will take a 200A breaker on the bus.
The one @BrettS is showing could be rated for this lugs, from the copper buss I suspect its one of the nicer versions. Only the sticker will tell.

This is really interesting, thanks for taking the time to educate us on these details. I have certainly learned a lot from your posts. I had assumed that a 200A panel was a 200A panel, but clearly that’s not the case and I can see how it can make sense to ‘cheat’ a little and with a 200A center fed panel.

Here’s the sticker from my panel (although it looks like it’s seen better days). In reading through it I didn’t really see anything about whether the feed throughs were rated for 200A or not. It would be interesting to find out, just for my education, but it’s certainly not worth spending a lot of time on if the information isn’t readily available.

 

[Vines]

Thanks for checking out the pics. I didn’t mention that I’ve already got a PW reservation (intending to combine it with solar and get bundled discount).

They told me, after looking at pictures and before I mentioned installing a heat pump, that 2 PWs could back up the whole house, and they didn’t mention any panel upgrade. I was also told the deposit is fully refundable at any time even though the contract says it isn’t. Who the heck knows??

I guess we all deal with this because of the low prices. The PW quotes I received from the 3rd parties were ridiculous!!

Likely I work for one of the "ridiculous" ones, but you wont get a surprise bill, nor an unsafe MSP connection.

Good people and good service takes money, some people are better off with a low cost leader. Every one has their market to hit. Also once you factor in $10k in SGIP, 3PW is a lot of value.

This is really interesting, thanks for taking the time to educate us on these details. I have certainly learned a lot from your posts. I had assumed that a 200A panel was a 200A panel, but clearly that’s not the case and I can see how it can make sense to ‘cheat’ a little and with a 200A center fed panel.

Here’s the sticker from my panel (although it looks like it’s seen better days). In reading through it I didn’t really see anything about whether the feed throughs were rated for 200A or not. It would be interesting to find out, just for my education, but it’s certainly not worth spending a lot of time on if the information isn’t readily available.

View attachment 557742

You are welcome, I do this all day long. Your panel indeed is rated for subfeed lugs, see the note at the upper right. I have never seen subfeed lugs rated at less than 175A on a modern 200A panel

 

[wwhitney]

Interesting things about 200A Center fed panels.
Most often they are really a pair of 100A bus bars connected to a pair of 100A ganged breakers functioning as the 200A main breaker. This overall makes a 200A panel, but no 200A connection is possible on the distribution side.

Thank you for the information, I wasn't aware that was a possible limitation. But I see that per the photo of the panel label and the data sheet, the OP's panel has a maximum 100A branch breaker restriction.

I'm a little unclear on why this is, could you explain more? Looking through Square D's catalog, the restriction only applies to the 200A CSEDs (meter mains) with a backfed HOM2200 as the main breaker. My best current guess is that the restriction is due to the wire bending space provided within the cabinet, as the label says branch circuit wiring shall be limited to #1 or smaller. [Which requires 3" bending space per NEC Table 312.6(A), versus 3.5" for #2/0 and 4" for #4/0.] Since the CSED is a side-by-side configuration, the available width in the distribution portion is limited. So it would tend to be a limitation of side-by-side meter mains, which I'm speculating in Square D's product line happen to coincide with the ones using HOM2200 as the main breaker.

BTW, the bus in the OP's meter main has to be a single 200A bus, because you're clearly allowed to install two 100A breakers on the same side of the main breaker, and the main breaker isn't going to trip for just half the bus at 100A. So bus size is not the reason for the limitation.

To the OP, there's basically no reasonable path to installing (3) Powerwalls without a service upgrade. But if you provided the panel label photo to Tesla for their design prior to signing the contract, I would think you have a reasonable argument that the upgrade expense should fall on Tesla, because they missed it. Whether your contract language says that, however, is obviously a different story.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Vines]

The 100A max is a bus limitation designed to reduce the chances of overheating the cheaper 2x100A buss.

These cheap center fed panels are more like 2x100A panels, rather than a true 200A panel.

The wire bending space issue is alleviated with the special 4 pole, 200A breaker or lugs subfeed kits, which have a body that makes the bend and combines the 2 outputs back into 1 feed, and bends it about 85 degrees right out of the breaker. See this link.

SQUARE D QO2200 : MINIATURE CIRCUIT BREAKER 120/240V 200A | Gordon Electric Supply, Inc.

The 4 pole breakers that do this 200A subfeed connection also limit each stab to 100A.

This is fine on a 200A bus designed for 100A per stab and designed to pass 200A to either end.

A center fed panel is usually designed to pass 100A to either end of the 2 individual 100A bussing. Some center fed panels have true 200A bussing, just to make it even more confusing, and those can legally take 200A Lugs, as shown above on BrettS panel.

Older, 200A subfeed lugs will fit in newer panels even with 100A bus bars. Newer busbars and subfeed kits have rejection clips to prevent this, but with the inter compatibility of breakers available, especially over time there's often ways around this.

To the OP, the only way to make this work without a panel swap imo would be the 100% rule, with 2x100A max connections to either end of the MSP. One side is backup, 100A brach circuit with all the PV and PW and essential loads on it. The other side is non backup loads, 100A max, and you put the well and spa on that. You can self consume both while grid is up and only critical loads while grid is down.

 

[wwhitney]

The 100A max is a bus limitation designed to reduce the chances of overheating the cheaper 2x100A buss.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 2x100A buss. If you mean that removing the main breaker leaves you with an upper 100A bus and a lower 100A bus which aren't connected, I'm having a bit of trouble believing that, because HOM2200 is not going to trip at 100A, so the upper and lower bus wouldn't be properly protected. And the catalog clearly says the main breaker is HOM2200, not some alternate version that is really two HOM2100 breakers in parallel.

The wire bending space issue is alleviated with the special 4 pole, 200A breaker or lugs subfeed kits, which have a body that makes the bend and combines the 2 outputs back into 1 feed, and bends it about 85 degrees right out of the breaker.

Oh, that's good news.

It seems to me Square D needs to be queried at this point about the SC2040M200C CSED. Namely (1) what is the bus rating and (2) can HOML2225 be used in this CSED? Because if it's a 200A bus, and the #1 distribution wiring/100A breaker limitation is only due to bending space, then seems like HOML2225 should be allowed, and the original design would work.

To the OP, the only way to make this work without a panel swap imo would be the 100% rule, with 2x100A max connections to either end of the MSP. One side is backup, 100A brach circuit with all the PV and PW and essential loads on it.

The problem with that is the OP has ~15kW of solar and wants to install (3) PWs, so that's well over 80A of generation, too much for a 100A feeder. Double 100A feeders would work if it was only (2) PWs and the PV was split so that only 32A of PV inverter output was connected with the Powerwalls. The other PV would have to go to the non-backed up panel and wouldn't be available during a grid outage.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Vines]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 2x100A buss. If you mean that removing the main breaker leaves you with an upper 100A bus and a lower 100A bus which aren't connected, I'm having a bit of trouble believing that, because HOM2200 is not going to trip at 100A, so the upper and lower bus wouldn't be properly protected. And the catalog clearly says the main breaker is HOM2200, not some alternate version that is really two HOM2100 breakers in parallel.


Oh, that's good news.

It seems to me Square D needs to be queried at this point about the SC2040M200C CSED. Namely (1) what is the bus rating and (2) can HOML2225 be used in this CSED? Because if it's a 200A bus, and the #1 distribution wiring/100A breaker limitation is only due to bending space, then seems like HOML2225 should be allowed, and the original design would work.


The problem with that is the OP has ~15kW of solar and wants to install (3) PWs, so that's well over 80A of generation, too much for a 100A feeder. Double 100A feeders would work if it was only (2) PWs and the PV was split so that only 32A of PV inverter output was connected with the Powerwalls. The other PV would have to go to the non-backed up panel and wouldn't be available during a grid outage.

Cheers, Wayne

This is the breaker in question, you can see its (2) 100A breakers tied by a common trip. Either 100A tripping trips the whole thing, within the limits of the UL listing.

HOM2200 - Square D 200A Plug-On Circuit Breaker

As to the question of tripping the 100A breaker in my scenario, it depends on the CT location and the load on the non backup side. You are partially correct that this is an issue. In this case, likely the additional CT could only go around about 20A worth of non backup load to offset, depending on actual draw, actual load at the home, and actual PV generation.

The new GW2 has some new functions to make this work even better, but that equipment was not installed in this case.

So the only loss in my theoretical 2x100 subfeed scenario is the ability to self consume more than 20A of non backup loads with PW power.

To be clear I may have missed something in my "Internet Evaluation" that the electricians on site saw as an issue. This is only how it looks from my chair some hundreds of miles away, we all make mistakes.

 

[wwhitney]

It seems to me Square D needs to be queried at this point about the SC2040M200C CSED. Namely (1) what is the bus rating and (2) can HOML2225 be used in this CSED?

OK, this FAQ Can the HOM2150BB, HOM2175BB, HOM2200BB or HOML2225 be used in CSED Meter-Mains and All-In-One devices? clearly says that the answer to (2) is no. So there's no way to properly get more than a 100A connection to the distribution side of the OP's main panel.

I still don't understand why the answer is no, though. Because I don't see how, beyond issues of wire bending space, connecting two HOM2100s side by side (4 positions) is any different in terms of potential current draw, bus heating, etc. than connecting a HOM2200BB or HOML2225 (also 4 positions). And there's no language on the panel label stating that two HOM2100s can't be installed side by side, that they would need to be split on either side of the main breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[BrettS]

Likely I work for one of the "ridiculous" ones, but you wont get a surprise bill, nor an unsafe MSP connection.

Honestly I think Tesla is not being fair to you guys. I had gotten quotes from a couple of local installers as well as Tesla and Tesla was able to install 4 powerwalls for the same price that everyone else could do two. I had talked to one of the local installers about it and he said that the powerwall prices were very much dictated by Tesla and he couldn’t go down even if he wanted to. He had designed a great system, but I just couldn’t bring myself to spend $15,000 more, But it seems crazy to me that Tesla is offering great prices on the powerwalls if you buy directly through them, but they are dictating non competitive high prices to the third party resellers.

 

[pgrovetom1]

I don't really expect Tesla to eat the whole $4800 but rather to consider their errors bungling problems and my wasted time and re-quote as one job - not just bump it by MSRP. There is no way it costs $10,100 for this work and equipment based on what I've seen over 2 days. They did the complete install of the equipment on the wall in 4-5 hours. Tesla has had 2 crews out here and only one did any work.

The first crew, an electrician and 2 very green assistants worked about 4-5 hours to mount the 3 PWs, the backup panel, the non-backed up panel, the generation panel and Gateway on my equipment wall. They hung around another 2 hours just messing around planning the next scheduling and approach. The electrician reviewed it with me and it was the re-use the feed through lugs and run it over some kind of bridge and a splice box below my panel. It was consistent with what the designer had said. The electrician looked at everything fairly carefully while planning the completion.

Then I got a call 2 Tuesday's ago at about 11AM from Tesla saying they had a crew available to finish my job. I explained that an afternoon is hardly enough based on what their team had said but said it was ok to come over. That was a mistake. There was nothing that could have been done since once they cut into my panel, I'm without power. The first electrician had a plan and time guesstimate such that the job could be done in one day or two but in such a way my power was cut for the least time. Somehow his plan got lost and the second electrician came in cold. He knew this immediately but also disagreed with the first electrician in re-using my existing 200A feed through lugs. He also seemed upset about intercepting my feeder wires, splicing them and mounting the splice box somewhere below my panel. It sounded like the quote might have include this based on his comments. But that was always in the job. Anybody who thinks about where the feeder wires go now and where they must be routed should be able to imagine a splice box below my panel. Or maybe below on the right or left side. Then he and his assistant hung around from about noon till 3-4PM and left.

So Tesla has wasted 5-6 hours of installation team time ( which must be $125-$150 per hour) So there goes a thousand $ from lousy communication and planning. I believe they had a team finish early and wanted to use his time. Instead they wasted his time and now they have 2 plans. Tesla's installation manual also supports a meter only main service where the main disconnect is in the Gateway. That was another lower cost possibility. All that's needed is a code compliant way of connecting the meter output to the gateway using its disconnect switch or adding one in the path with a solo meter/disconnect panel. The new panel is not exactly an expensive panel with no breakers.

I should hear from them next week and I'll post how it goes. I'm not too hopeful. So much for contracts.

 

[Vines]

OK, this FAQ Can the HOM2150BB, HOM2175BB, HOM2200BB or HOML2225 be used in CSED Meter-Mains and All-In-One devices? clearly says that the answer to (2) is no. So there's no way to properly get more than a 100A connection to the distribution side of the OP's main panel.

I still don't understand why the answer is no, though. Because I don't see how, beyond issues of wire bending space, connecting two HOM2100s side by side (4 positions) is any different in terms of potential current draw, bus heating, etc. than connecting a HOM2200BB or HOML2225 (also 4 positions). And there's no language on the panel label stating that two HOM2100s can't be installed side by side, that they would need to be split on either side of the main breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

Because the 100A rated half bus it is connected to is protected by a 100A breaker.

A more expensive center fed main service panel would be more robust and the upper or lower halves would be rated to flow 200A both directions.

The cheaper panel, if you ask for 200A from one end, is rated such that a single 100A to feed to each half.

The more expensive panel with the beefier bus would be rated so that the stabs of a 4 pole breaker can go one direction, rather than needing to split half and half. Its all about heat buildup, and if 200A is split into 2 100A halves you can use cheaper equipment.

If all 200A needs to be able to flow in either direction its a more expensive unit.

Couple last minute edits, and now back to drafting this residential 146 panel system with SPR370w panels and 5 powerwalls. We are downsizing the 800A main to 700A

 

[SMAlset]

@BrettS are you factoring in SGIP availability? Tesla only gets alloted a small percentage of that fund for using with their customers with the larger balance of the SGIP allotment spread out among 3rd parties so that the cost would be more comparable. The SGIP for Tesla was gone in the first few days of the year when it became available. That program was a pretty good incentive.

 

[BrettS]

@BrettS are you factoring in SGIP availability? Tesla only gets alloted a small percentage of that fund for using with their customers with the larger balance of the SGIP allotment spread out among 3rd parties so that the cost would be more comparable. The SGIP for Tesla was gone in the first few days of the year when it became available. That program was a pretty good incentive.

I believe that’s a California only thing. It doesn’t apply to me in Florida, at least.

 

[SMAlset]

I don't really expect Tesla to eat the whole $4800 but rather to consider their errors bungling problems and my wasted time and re-quote as one job - not just bump it by MSRP. There is no way it costs $10,100 for this work and equipment based on what I've seen over 2 days. They did the complete install of the equipment on the wall in 4-5 hours. Tesla has had 2 crews out here and only one did any work.

The first crew, an electrician and 2 very green assistants worked about 4-5 hours to mount the 3 PWs, the backup panel, the non-backed up panel, the generation panel and Gateway on my equipment wall. They hung around another 2 hours just messing around planning the next scheduling and approach. The electrician reviewed it with me and it was the re-use the feed through lugs and run it over some kind of bridge and a splice box below my panel. It was consistent with what the designer had said. The electrician looked at everything fairly carefully while planning the completion.

Then I got a call 2 Tuesday's ago at about 11AM from Tesla saying they had a crew available to finish my job. I explained that an afternoon is hardly enough based on what their team had said but said it was ok to come over. That was a mistake. There was nothing that could have been done since once they cut into my panel, I'm without power. The first electrician had a plan and time guesstimate such that the job could be done in one day or two but in such a way my power was cut for the least time. Somehow his plan got lost and the second electrician came in cold. He knew this immediately but also disagreed with the first electrician in re-using my existing 200A feed through lugs. He also seemed upset about intercepting my feeder wires, splicing them and mounting the splice box somewhere below my panel. It sounded like the quote might have include this based on his comments. But that was always in the job. Anybody who thinks about where the feeder wires go now and where they must be routed should be able to imagine a splice box below my panel. Or maybe below on the right or left side. Then he and his assistant hung around from about noon till 3-4PM and left.

So Tesla has wasted 5-6 hours of installation team time ( which must be $125-$150 per hour) So there goes a thousand $ from lousy communication and planning. I believe they had a team finish early and wanted to use his time. Instead they wasted his time and now they have 2 plans. Tesla's installation manual also supports a meter only main service where the main disconnect is in the Gateway. That was another lower cost possibility. All that's needed is a code compliant way of connecting the meter output to the gateway using its disconnect switch or adding one in the path with a solo meter/disconnect panel. The new panel is not exactly an expensive panel with no breakers.

I should hear from them next week and I'll post how it goes. I'm not too hopeful. So much for contracts.

Wow things happen, stuff gets overlooked when there's a change of staff, and covid hasn't helped anyone make things easier. This side of Tesla's business is taking off; and sure they've had growing pains and then covid. As I've said our experience with Tesla has always been good, be it with our two car purchases or now with our Energy purchase. I've read how people on here approach situations as "Tesla is out to screw us" and just don't think it's fair. I've seen owners with experiences to the contrary on here.

I don't know what your relationship has been with TE but when we were surprised that our City wanted the main panel upgrade and we received the cost proposal, my husband nicely explained that that was certainly an expensive surprise at this point after getting our permit and waiting for install. The advisor said he would see what they could do about it and his supervisor spoke to us about sharing the cost. As I mentioned above, I think they figured they would eat some of the labor cost, obviously the new panel box and permits were hard costs for them. We thought that was very fair as after all we apparently were being required by our City to get the upgrade and in the end we were getting brand new equipment out of this (ours was already 16 years old and breakers do have a range of usefullnes). We would have had Tesla do the work if it hadn't been for their guy booked out so far that we didn't want to wait at that point. It did end up costing us more money in the long run going with an outside electrician for what turned out thanks to covid shutdowns to still be a long wait. The original estimate that Tesla gave us was very much in line with an outside electrican's so we don't feel that we were being taken advantage of at all.

 

[bayareaever]

Likely I work for one of the "ridiculous" ones, but you wont get a surprise bill, nor an unsafe MSP connection.

Good people and good service takes money, some people are better off with a low cost leader. Every one has their market to hit. Also once you factor in $10k in SGIP, 3PW is a lot of value.



You are welcome, I do this all day long. Your panel indeed is rated for subfeed lugs, see the note at the upper right. I have never seen subfeed lugs rated at less than 175A on a modern 200A panel

Well now I’ve probably offended you while you’re trying to help, and if so I apologize.

Just one example- with Tesla’s new pricing, the cost for a medium solar system plus 3 PWs is equal to the price I was quoted for just 3 PWs by a 3rd party a few months ago!

I agree that Tesla isn’t being ‘fair’ to the local installers, but Elon is trying to ‘change the world‘ and that’s going to require lower and lower prices.

The SGIP rebate seems to be entirely offset by higher prices with the 3rd party quotes I’ve seen, and also doesn’t sound fully guaranteed to me, or at least will take several months to receive, which means I would have to finance that extra ~ $10k. Plus, from what I understand the batteries have to cycle through at least once a week which doesn’t work for everyone’s situation. It would be more forthcoming for the installers to clarify that.

 

[SMAlset]

People can get faster installs scheduled sometimes through a third party installer especially in areas where TE is swamped and if in Calif they go with an installer who has the SGIP incentive available the cost can be comparable on the solar. 3rd parties will work with different products and may offer other advantages, some may have financing lined up for example. Lots of people on here who have contracted through various installers for all or separate parts of their systems.

 

[Vines]

Well now I’ve probably offended you while you’re trying to help, and if so I apologize.

Just one example- with Tesla’s new pricing, the cost for a medium solar system plus 3 PWs is equal to the price I was quoted for just 3 PWs by a 3rd party a few months ago!

I agree that Tesla isn’t being ‘fair’ to the local installers, but Elon is trying to ‘change the world‘ and that’s going to require lower and lower prices.

The SGIP rebate seems to be entirely offset by higher prices with the 3rd party quotes I’ve seen, and also doesn’t sound fully guaranteed to me, or at least will take several months to receive, which means I would have to finance that extra ~ $10k. Plus, from what I understand the batteries have to cycle through at least once a week which doesn’t work for everyone’s situation. It would be more forthcoming for the installers to clarify that.

I am absolutely not offended, I'm a realist. Some people are looking for a more hands on approach, spending personal time coordinating, emailing and even submitting their own SGIP! We have plenty of work and there's plenty for everyone.

My point is that the lower prices Tesla charges do not always include the "surprises" and they are moving so fast these things will happen. Tesla Energy is such a tiny part of Tesla that they could lose 2x what they make and still be sustained, effectively buying the market. Tesla can sell the Powerwall at near their cost to customers, and a very similar price to installers.

This approach puts other small installers in a bad place because there's no way they can compete on cost. We have to compete on service and competency. We install only premium modules, and if there's an issue after installation, our tech team is on it within a couple days.

I can see that Elon identifies the biggest expense as the sales process, and its true. Still there's some value there for non technical people, to have highly trained technical sales people and designers.

 

[BrettS]

Yeah, I get that there are a lot of good reasons for people to go with a third party installer, but what I think is unfair is that Tesla dictates the price that third party installers need to sell the powerwall at, but then they sell and install those same powerwalls for much much less.

The third party installers can’t compete on price even if they wanted to.

 

[Vines]

Our customers bottom line after all incentives for a 12kW system plus 3 PW is higher than Tesla.
Tesla will not be using Sunpower panels, and won't want to deal with extras.

There's plenty of work for all of us PGE PSPS practically guarantee it.