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Tesla town hall meetings - Jan 26 & 27, 2009

Discussion in 'News' started by doug, Jan 25, 2009.

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  1. DDB

    DDB Member

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    Yep, nice review. I wouldn't sleep too well knowing all the deposits are at risk if Tesla goes under. How difficult would it be to put it in an escrow account? Damn good thing early adopters pave the way for us chickens.
     
  2. Grin

    Grin Member

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    Dave does this mean you would have to get a new tesla or could a current owner upgrade?
     
  3. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Thanks for the write-ups, guys. It looks like most of my questions at least got touched upon.

    I think the issue was that it might not be worth the cost to upgrade your Tesla. That you'd be better off selling it and buying a new one when that feature becomes available. I guess things will be more clear when the audio becomes available.
     
  4. no96

    no96 Member

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    "possible, but probably not worth it, sell your roadster and buy a new one " or words to that effect.
    The charger requires 400V so is not for your house, but for public charging stations.
     
  5. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #25 TEG, Jan 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2009
    Eek! Reality was worse than the rumor.


    OK, so I think things may have changed since the early days of powertrain 2.0 plans.
    I think early "Whitestar" (Model S) talked off more powerful/beefier eMotor, possibly liquid cooled, with option for two variants with different power output.
    OK, so I gather it is time to forget everything I thought I knew about powertrain 2.0. It sounds like they are reusing that name for a different project to lower the costs on the Roadster motor.
    Hmm. So the Daimler deal is more than just battery packs for the Smart program. I gather what was the original DT2.0 program is now part of that new project.

    So, I guess that answer is something like this:
    2008 eMotor = DT 1.5
    2009 base motor = DT "1.2" (similar specs to 1.5 but costs less to make)

    Will the "sport' motor be based off of DT1.5 or DT1.2? (I suppose it doesn't matter too much).
    But what of "EU Roadster"? Does it also use DT1.2?
    And what of 'Model S'? DT1.2? 2.0? (Guess we have to wait for March 5 to start asking)

    I think everyone basically assumed that, but to see it stated so bluntly is spooky. Hopefully it never comes to that.
     
  6. Bradleybang

    Bradleybang Member

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    Good summary Tesla Dave.

    some additional notes

    I asked afterward and was told the fast charger could work in the current roadster battery.

    They are hoping to change the connector also in the next year or two.

    The Tesla website should have some changes in the next day.

    The DT2.0 (1.2) is not for the current roadster including 2009-10. It will only be integrated in next roadster redesign.

    The sport is more of a perfomance tweak to motor-DT-shocks-stabalizers
     
  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Sorry to belabor the drivetrain so much.

    So, I will guess/assume the following now:

    2009 base US roadster will probably have the same DT1.5 as the 2008 model.
    2009 base EU roadster will also use DT1.5 (report of 300+ bhp was probably wrong)
    2009 Sport model will likely use DT1.5+ (DT1.5 with eMotor tweak) (report of "same drivetrain as Model S" was probably wrong)
    Will Sport upgrade be available to both US and EU customers?

    Some bits of the original DT2.0 program seem to have morphed into DT1.2 to go into the SmartE. Model S and some future redesigned version of the Roadster will probably get the full DT2.0 in a few years.

    Thats the best I could do giving the bits of info. Still not 100% clear yet.
     
  8. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    As I understand it, drivetrain "version 2" is how they've been referring to it internally and the name is "a bit of an exaggeration." It's an incremental step from the current Roadster drivetrain 1.5 with the goal of reducing cost. How it affects performance is still a bit of open question, however, and probably could use some further clarificaition from Tesla. I believe it is intended for 2009MY cars.

    Proper DT 2.0 as it applies to Model S involves more significant changes, including a liquid cooled motor. I suppose the labels could change by the time the Model S comes out.
     
  9. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    #29 doug, Jan 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2009
    Apparently the details of the $12K battery deal are still being worked out. But as suspected, the basic idea is that you pay $12K now, and in 7 years you get a battery pack that is equivalent to the pack that is delivered with the car. There's some talk about what if you want new a battery before 7 years, in which case your $12K would be used as some kind of credit or the cost of a new battery would be somehow prorated. We'll likely get more well defined info soon.


    One thing I haven't heard about in further detail is the 240V mobile charger.
     
  10. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #30 TEG, Jan 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2009
    This sort-of contradicts what Doug just said.

    But, if we consider 1.2 and 2.0 as two different things, then it would make more sense that 2.0 could come later and 1.2 could be the cost reduced drivetrain for 2009.

    I am guessing that SmartE would require less power than the Roadster (don't want to overload the chassis or the smaller battery pack), and they could use more than Roadster power for the much heavier 'Model S' so there might be more variations then just those 2.

    So, I am not sure if 2009 Roadsters get carryover DT1.5 just like 2008s, or if they get some sort of cost reduced DT1.2 variation with performance similar to DT1.5

    Also, SmartE might get some sort of "mini 1.2" with the latest cost reduction improvements, but perhaps not as powerful as the Roadster motor.

    Again, just speculation here based on trying to read between the lines.

    By the way, I don't consider 'cost reduced' a negative. Frequently 2nd gen stuff costs less to make, but is actually better. The 2nd gen Prius Synergy drive cost less to make but was much better than the 1st gen. Typically engineers are improving and cost reducing at the same time.
     
  11. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    #31 dpeilow, Jan 28, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2009
    No, I literally meant I can sleep now. It was quite late over here :tongue:


    Looks like others have been reading this:

    Tesla town hall meeting: details on price increases, Model S, Daimler Smart car


    I'd like to know what is driving the need for the 45 minute charger to be outboard and if current, where the threshold is (my personal preference would be to hook up to any CEEform / IEC 309 socket, even the 400V 125A sort).

    Interesting, and not a surprise, that the $12k buys an identical battery to today's. I wonder if those cells will still be in production then?


    Tesla announces Model S Concept, explains price hikes in town hall meeting - MotorAuthority - Car news, reviews, spy shots

    grr
     
  12. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    "Version 2" will be ready "by June" which is in time for the 2009MY cars. ("1.2" was likely an off the cuff remark and he probably actually meant to say something more like 1.6.)

    The drivetrain including the water cooled motor, which has been referred to publicly as DT 2.0, will not be in the Roadster until the next redesign. Remember, however, that the 2010MY is supposed to start this fall.
     
  13. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    Yes I am reading that 1.2 is actually 1.6 and is small cost improvements over 1.5. I am also taking from this that 2.0 will be the water cooled version with greater capabilities and will be available in the Model S from the start and will be available in the next gen of Roadsters ( probably coming out shortly after the model S hits the roads which will be just over 2-3 years from now and about the time they suggested. How does that sum it up ?!?!?!?
     
  14. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Yeah, that's my take as well. Although we have to ignore what we assume is some mis-information, and/or mis-quotes to come to that conclusion.
     
  15. Tdave

    Tdave Member

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    How so? What Kevin said is the gist of what I heard Elon say at yesterday's meeting.
     
  16. NEWDL

    NEWDL R#350 R#1323 Sig23(traded) 8136, RWD LR 3, P3D

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    Model S Comments

    Anyone find it interesting that the frame and powertrain of the Model S is going to be somewhat of a rolling chassis for other bodies to the placed into? (Elon stated during Menlo Park meeting)

    This is great for economies of scale in terms of production...at first I thought it would be hard for demand to sustain the numbers Tesla was quoting for the Model S but with many variations...demand may exceed the production capabilities.
     
  17. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    The above can be read as "powertrain 2.0 really should be called 1.2 since it is a minor refinement". This implies that the (water cooled) next gen (for Daimler) is not called "2.0". Previously we though that "2.0" referred to the Model 'S' (and perhaps Daimler) drivetrain under development.

    But it isn't just your quote that is confusing.

    This link talking about the Roadster Sport said "This new powertrain will be the same one used by Model S" which is one of the bits of mis-information that I plan to ignore now.

    Putting it another way, I gather that the Daimler and Model S powertrains will be water cooled as well as some future Roadster (in 3 years or so).
    All of the 2009 Roadsters (base, sport, EU) will continue with an air cooled eMotor, right? Some minor adjustments to the 2008 eMotor design are in store for 2009. We have the confirmed sport variant with more power and efficiency as well as recent reports of cost reductions (possibly only for the base version?)
     
  18. Tdave

    Tdave Member

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    OK, I see the confusion. Tonight I'll listen again to that part of the meeting and see what I can figure out.
     
  19. Tdave

    Tdave Member

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    I was troubled hearing this, and now a bit confused. Legally, it is what I would expect. However I also remember Elon a couple months ago saying he would personally guarantee and stand behind the deposits. This was widely reported in the press. I think it was late Oct or Nov when the reports about Tesla low on cash were circulating and a few weeks before they got their $40M funding round, and I'm guessing probably were concerned about customers panicking about their deposits.
     
  20. Tdave

    Tdave Member

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    Found it. Here's one article:

    Elon Musk to bail out Tesla Motors with own money

     

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