Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
One of the frustrating things about living in two homes 3,600 miles apart is that the something that you really need always seems to be Over There.
This evening’s example is my material covering world energy data. So: can anyone tell me what 2TWh looks like as a function of US’s or Europe’s gas/coal/nuke electric production plants? 10%? 50%? 200%?
The units are, of course, all kaflooey. One is in production per year of storage capacity, the other is in consumable production.

The US uses an average of ~500 Gigawatts in electricity, so 2Twhs is enough to store 4 hours worth of US electricity consumption.

Europe uses about 300 gigawatts, China uses about 700 gigawatts, and Japan uses about 100 gigawatts.
 
(There's only one major mistake right now that I'm aware of, that of dismal service communications. Whether this is geographically isolated or systemic is unknown -

UK here. never had any problems with UK model S service. its pretty good actually. I used to say that lexus was better, but this afternoon a ranger will come fit my free arachnid wheels for my referral reward so yeah...better than lexus. they always wanted me to go someplace. (and of course service on a hybrid is awful, and expensive, and annoying).
 
We might see a rebound like what we saw after the January 2nd delivery report. Went from $350-$300-$350 in one week. Uptrend is still intact and chart is showing a reverse head and shoulders. This quarter is really a mixed bag.

Ark still hasn’t sold a single share during this run up (they usually reduce Tesla exposure during run ups). So I won’t sell either. I’ll sell some cash secured puts though
 
Looks like Nissan will be the first ICE OEM to fall in the new order.
Nissan job cuts: 12,500 positions to go as profits collapse - CNN

For anyone upset about the Earnings Report from Tesla, do your own research and read it end to end, before making your own opinion. Overall Earnings Report shows excellent progress for a company in high growth mode. Tesla is setting up their business to become highly profitable. Don't let Mr. Media fool you by cherry picking items that have yet to come to fruition pushing a doom and gloom narrative. It is just noise. Keep up the great work Tesla.

Ford numbers were pretty awful too. Tesla actually beat Ford in FCF generation in Q2. ;)
 
In normal business anything above 10% would be considered pretty exceptional...

Even if you factor in "Elon time" you're probably talking about an Amazon-esque 30%+ CAGR. Ford's revenue is the same as it was in 1998... without adjusting for inflation.

Honestly, the way GAAP works it's probably mathematically impossible to make a GAAP profit above a certain growth rate and CAPEX percentage, even if you have very strong cash flow.
 
You all here laughed at and "debunked" Fred's story about JB and yet here we are.

Actually, I didn't discount or debunk Fred's story, and I marked one of the comments by @RFernatt during the June shareholder meeting that speculated about JB's exit as "Informative" at the time - FWIW.

Wait, are you saying that a journalist holding TSLA should not be critical of the company?

No.

Are you saying that if a journalist has news they should sit on it because it might hurt the company?

No.

Are you saying that a journalist should be hush hush about dynamic price changes and keep their readers uninformed what's going on so they make mistake and buy their car for more than they could a week later, all in the name of pumping TSLA?

No.

I do however think that:
  • Journalists with influence, which Electrek clearly has in the Tesla news space, have a responsibility to judge the intent of the leakers - such us when sources are leaking news timed in a fashion to to hurt end of quarter Tesla sales. Journalists have a discretionary decision about the timing, and whether to add their own credibility to the leak.
  • Thinking that all information should be unconditionally free and thinking that journalists have no responsibility other than to disclose information immediately is incredibly naive.
  • I also think a journalist like Fred should be a lot less whiny about price changes that affect their own Model 3 Performance purchase. :D
 
I thought on the whole the Q2 call was very positive, aside from the JB departure but that was not entirely unexpected. Lots of very positive updates on demand and future plans. Elon was slightly back to hype mode - I think partly because he was feeling defensive over the JB announcement - I don't think he would necessarily have let their TWh battery cell plans out the bag otherwise.

Some standout 2Q19 call quotes:

Elon - "we expect growth to continue in the future at -- for several years to come at 50% to 100% level."

Elon - "We also have to finalize a location for our European Gigafactory before the end of the year."

Elon - "Here at Fremont, preparations for Model Y production has already begun.

Elon - "And we expect the manufacturing costs for Model Y despite additional content to be approximately the same as Model 3."

Elon - "We expect to be cash flow -- free cash flow positive in future quarters with the possible temporary exceptions around the launch and ramp of new product. From a profitability standpoint, we expect to be probably around breakeven this quarter and profitable next quarter, so that's -- I feel pretty confident about that."

Elon - "And then in terms of deliveries, we expect deliveries to be between 360,000 and 400,000. We expect production to be a slightly higher number than that, and demand to be a slightly higher number than that."

Zach - "There's $117 million within operating expenses for restructuring. We had a sequential reduction of $104 million related to regulatory credit, which is inherently lumpy. And in our other income line, we saw a $66 million reduction."

Zach - "For Model 3, global ASPs stabilized during the quarter at roughly $50,000, a sequential reduction, yet gross profit per Model 3 improved representing the continued success of our cost management efforts."

Zach - "while operating expenses and capital expenses may appear to be unnaturally low this quarter, that's not the case. Rather these reflect continued progress on cost efficiency and ability to scale our core technologies and processes."

Zach - "nearly all orders generated in Q2 were non-reservation holders."

Elon - "we have already opened to 25 new service locations this quarter and that will increase -- the rate of service center opening will increase dramatically through the course of this year as well as more Mobile Service."

Zach - "And thus far in Q3, our order pacing is ahead of where we were at this point in Q2. And as we noted in our Q2 production and delivery release, our order backlog increased over the course of Q2."

Zach - "I feel as though we've broken through a baseline fixed cost barrier, enabled by the success of the Model 3 business."

Zach - "With continued focus on execution and cost management, the next 12 to 18 months should be the most exciting yet. During this time, we believe that Gigafactory, Shanghai will be producing at scale. Model Y will be in production, addressing the most popular vehicle segment. Our European Gigafactory will be well underway. Our autonomous driving feature suite will continue to develop; energy products business will grow and maybe a few other things along the way."

Elon - JB Straubel, our Co-founder and Chief Technology Officer will be transitioning to a Senior Advisor from the CTO role; and Drew Baglino will be taking over most of JB's responsibilities.

Drew We have seen improvements in the 23-gigawatt hour number. We're in the high 20s now with the trajectory continuing upward. We're not...
Elon So about 28-ish?
Drew Yes 28-ish. I would say, we're not so constrained for any of our activities at the moment.
Elon Cell volume is approximately matching the production ramp rate.

Zach - "And so, I would expect some adjustment to our Model 3 ASPs as a result of this pricing change, but the trim mix will offset some of that. And we continue to make great progress on cost efficiencies. And so, overall in that our expectation is that the Model 3 gross margin will continue to grow."

Elon - "Are you asking like what do I think the long-term demand for Model 3 is in Greater China region? I think it's about, from Shanghai Gigafactory, I think it's actually -- long-term demand is about 5,000 a week."

Elon - "I think for Battery Day, we're going to do a comprehensive review of cell chemistry, module and pack, architecture, and a manufacturing plan that has a clear roadmap to a terawatt-hour per year. The time for this probably is about six months like maybe February or March next year, show and tell"

Elon - "it's probably 2021 before we have an operational Gigafactory in Europe."
Elon - "I think say long-term demand is for Model 3, it's probably 15,000 units a week globally something like that."


Elon - "Demand in Q3 will exceed Q2. It has thus far, and I think we'll see some acceleration of that. So -- and then, I think Q4 will be, I think very strong. So, we expect that quarter-over-quarter improvements. I think Q1 next year will be tough. I think Q3 or Q4 will be good, Q1 will be tough. Q2 will be not as bad, but still tough. And then I see like Q3 and Q4 next year will be incredible."

Zach - "But generally speaking, our order rates so far this quarter is higher than where we were at this point in Q2, and we haven't seen a significant impact on U.S. based orders as a result of the step down."

Elon - "And I think we actually want to address that communications issue and just get a better understanding of– from the front lines like what demand should be higher for S and X than it is and will get to the bottom of it and fix it."

Elon - On 3/S/X gross margin. "So, yes, absolutely, I think, like long term we are talking 25%, 30%. Not long term meaning like a year. Long term, like, in terms of vernacular that 30% gross margin is I think quite likely."

Jerome - "Labor cost saw more than 50% reduction in one year. Yes, it's progressing every quarter. Yes. Reduced in half, yes, since the Q3 last year, but it's also all the -- for the fact that's associated with spares, the scrap is reduced to pretty much nothing, reduced 90% year-over-year. Spares are just more than half. So we're -- our goal is to make the car more affordable and sort of pushing everyday, yes. And every week we'll beat records on most lines."

Joseph Osha And just as a follow-on then, could we see you manage to make 8,000, 7,500, 8,000 Model 3s in Fremont by the end of the year you think?
Elon Yes. I mean I feel confident it's -- let's just say that the trend is very clearly towards being able to get to 10,000 vehicles a week of which that would be -- there is rough numbers like 8,300 to 8,600 Model 3s and the balance in S and X. So, there's sort of 1,600 to 1,800 SX. In round numbers 8,500 3s, 1,500 SX per week, but probably a bit more than that.

Zach - "generally as I've commented in the past, we expect regulatory credits to become a more meaningful part of our business." " And as you model regulatory credits in Q3, I would not expect a significant increase in regulatory credits, although it's hard to forecast exactly."

Colin - Can you walk us through the plan for battery sourcing in China? How many -- how much of the supply is going to come from internally produced batteries? How much is coming from externally? ...
Elon - I don't know if we want to talk about the details of battery supply. We've got a good handle on. We don't expect to be self constrained in China for the next year, I don't know. Drew what do you think?
Drew - Yes, that's what our plan looks like right now. In terms of internal versus external, I think we should wait until we have our discussion early next year. But yes, we have agreements in place with -- we're good for next year as you say Elon.

Elon: "To some degree battery day will kind of be master plan part three. Which will be how do we get from tens of GWh per year to multiple TWh per year. That's a pretty giant scale increase. That's an increase of roughly 100x. "
Elon: ... "How do we get to like 2TWh per year"
Drew: "That's the way you have to think about it because that's what you need to do."
Elon: "Yeah exactly. In order to really make a fundamental shift in the world's energy usage, and really transform things to a sustainable energy future, if you're not in the TWh range its a nice news story but its not fundamentally changing the energy equation"

Elon - "long-term sales of – long term meaning, a couple of years I think. The demand for -- sales demand for 3 is like on the order of three quarters of a million units a year, and it's probably 1.25 million per year for Model Year, so they combined is like maybe two million from those two vehicles, and then S/X is like there may be 80,000 to 100,000 a year."

Elon - "Service centers are the key to sales, not the retail locations"

Elon - "Supercharging is incredibly important to us. You can't just have like 80% of the routes somebody who wants to take, you need 100% routes"

Elon - "We really just need to look at the total system efficiency and say in the limit, if Tesla was the auto industry, how would we do it to maximize economic efficiency. And that's -- we're got to kind of like recalculate that optimization, as we achieve greater scale. I'm confident we can achieve a fundamentally better economic efficiency than the rest of the auto industry."​
 
"journalist like Fred".

o_O

With the page views and syndication channels of Electrek his site is a de facto news site for Tesla news and Fred Lambert is a de facto journalist, even if he prefers to call himself a "blogger" in an attempt to downplay his responsibility as a journalist.

In fact I like the "Electrek's take" separation of opinion from news - it makes it clear which part of the article he regards as objective news and which part he regards as his opinion. I wish other journalists did that too.
 
Last edited:
BTW., for all the Fred bashing, let's give credit where credit is due - he noticed something few here on TMC appear to have commented on so far, that there are previously undisclosed low-res images in the Q2 update letter about Tesla's Shanghai progress and the manufacturing lines in particular:

Tesla releases first pictures inside Gigafactory 3, shows impressive progress - Electrek

upload_2019-7-25_13-36-57.png

These images are showing a large hydraulic stamping machine being installed, and also industrial robots which I think are possibly part of the body line.

None of the drone videos have captured these details so far, which is not a surprise: this equipment would normally be installed in enclosed, air-conditioned, de-humidified space which drones don't have a view on from the outside.

Impressive progress at GF3 and they are farther ahead in installing production equipment than I thought!
 

Attachments

  • upload_2019-7-25_13-36-22.png
    upload_2019-7-25_13-36-22.png
    1.7 MB · Views: 53
Last edited:
Actually, I didn't discount or debunk Fred's story, and I marked one of the comments by @RFernatt during the June shareholder meeting that speculated about JB's exit as "Informative" at the time - FWIW.



No.



No.



No.

I do however think that:
  • Journalists with influence, which Electrek clearly has in the Tesla news space, have a responsibility to judge the intent of the leakers - such us when sources are leaking news timed in a fashion to to hurt end of quarter Tesla sales. Journalists have a discretionary decision about the timing, and whether to add their own credibility to the leak.
  • Thinking that all information should be unconditionally free and thinking that journalists have no responsibility other than to disclose information immediately is incredibly naive.
  • I also think a journalist like Fred should be a lot less whiny about price changes that affect their own Model 3 Performance purchase. :D

The only Fred is interested in is how many clicks Elektrek gets. There is no business ethics in his work really and you can see it that he pushed every info out anybody gives him without even checking. Some may be true some may be made up but my believe is that Fred does not really care as long as he has food for his readers.

Also he never even admitted to have written anything that was incorrect and gets very defensive and aggressive to anybody telling him so which is a very bad attitude not to mention how he and Seth did behave on Twitter whiteout ever apologizing. There is content and there is a form how you deal with reader and business partners and in my believe they don't behave professional..

I fully agree they have a responsibility and because I feel he do only cares about fame and how much money he can make with polarizing I did decide not to read articles any more.
 
Fair enough, I just really wish Fred would quit the complaining about the free stuff he gets from a company he build his profitable business on the back of.

Given his access and breadth of reach, it probably negatively affects tesla.

To be fair that "free stuff" such as his Roadster 2020 would normally be "direct advertiser income" for other newssites. Tesla was effectively buying positive social media presence through the very high value high end referral perks. So Fred earned that income fair and square which Tesla wasn't forced to give him, and he owes Tesla nothing in exchange.

The whining about pricing is annoying though.
 
BTW., for all the Fred bashing, let's give credit where credit is due - he noticed something few here on TMC appear to have commented on so far, that there are low-res images in the Q2 update letter about Tesla's Shanghai progress:

These images are showing a stamping machine being installed, and also industrial robots which I think are possibly part of the body line.

None of the drone videos have captured these details so far, which is not a surprise: this equipment would normally be installed in enclosed, air-conditioned, de-humidified space which drones don't have a view on from the outside.

Impressive progress at GF3!

If Fred/Elek paid EM 1c for every article based on a single EM tweet, EM's 5 sons would be millionaires by now ;)

+go to Elek for gossip, not objectivity
 
I'm starting to see a fundamental change in Elon/Tesla's strategy over the past 6-12 months.
I think this has likely been triggered by a huge in-house battery cell breakthrough as well as frustration at the continued feet dragging of the Auto OEMs in the EV transition.

Previously Elon just wanted Tesla to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles and renewable energy. He would do this through multiple innovations and tech breakthroughs to bring down the cost of batteries and EVs. He would also show there is demand for EVs. He really just wanted to pave the way for EVs and show what is possible, but planned for the rest of the industry to copy Tesla's designs and strategy and build most of the infrastructure.

I don't think this is the case any longer. I think Elon has lost patience with the world and the slow pace of its clean energy transition.
Now he wants to cause the auto OEMs pain, he wants to destroy them.
I think he is putting plans in place for Tesla to transition the world to clean energy on its own. If anyone else joins them, so much the better, but he doesn't want to risk reliance on anyone else to prevent global warming.

Tesla has now fully embraced the Amazon model. Cash flow, growth and market domination is king. Profit is much less relevant. It will be very difficult for the ICE OEMs to make a profit or survive in this new world.
 
[QUOTE="
. . .
Elon: "To some degree battery day will kind of be master plan part three. Which will be how do we get from tens of GWh per year to multiple TWh per year. That's a pretty giant scale increase. That's an increase of roughly 100x. "
Elon: ... "How do we get to like 2TWh per year"
Drew?: "That's the way you have to think about it because that's what you need to do."
Elon: "Yeah exactly. In order to really make a fundamental shift in the world's energy usage, and really transform things to a sustainable energy future, if you're not in the TWh range its a nice news story but its not fundamentally changing the energy equation"

That does not sound like they are planing to produce 1 or 2 TWh of batteries, that sounds like they see the need for such amount of battery storage. The question remains:
Elon: ... "How do we get to like 2TWh per year?"
Does he have an answer ?[/QUOTE]
I doubt they are going to hold a battery day and stand up there and say "We need to ramp up to TWh's of batteries per year but we don't know how to get there. You guys have any ideas? ".
 
Some standout 2Q19 call quotes:

Here's a few other interesting ones:
  • Zach: "It's also important to keep in mind that there's seasonality in the auto business in Q1, which also is part of the impact. But generally speaking, our order rates so far this quarter is higher than where we were at this point in Q2, and we haven't seen a significant impact on U.S. based orders as a result of the [tax credit] step down."
As @neroden's tax credit cliff model predicted, Q3 pull-forward into Q2 effect was much lower than the Q1 pull-forward effect, and they are already seeing this in the order data at the end of July. Any pull-forward drop would primarily manifest itself in July, and we are already past that stage. So this is good for Q3 deliveries.
  • Zach: "Generally, on ASP, as we noted in the letter, it was roughly -- even over the course of the quarter, stabilized around $50,000, and we have good visibility into where ASPs are going based on order data. So that gives us one to two months of lead as to where our actual recognized ASPs will be."
I think here Zach might have inadvertently disclosed that their Model 3 order backlog is about 1-2 months. ;)

Also, here is what Elon said exactly about Model S/X, truck and semi demand:
  • Elon: "The demand for -- sales demand for 3 is like on the order of three quarters of a million units a year, and it's probably 1.25 million per year for Model [Y], so they combined is like maybe two million from those two vehicles, and then S/X is like there may be 80,000 to 100,000 a year. So it's like 4% or 5% of the volume in 3 and Y. And then you could throw like a truck in there, pickup truck and a semi, but it just gets smaller and smaller. So they are great products, but they’re -- from a volume standpoint, they're not all that important in the long-term."
So no, Elon didn't downplay Model S/X, he only contrasted it with the much higher expected volumes of the Model 3 and Model Y of ~2,000,000 units per year.
 
Last edited:
One of the frustrating things about living in two homes 3,600 miles apart is that the something that you really need always seems to be Over There.
This evening’s example is my material covering world energy data. So: can anyone tell me what 2TWh looks like as a function of US’s or Europe’s gas/coal/nuke electric production plants? 10%? 50%? 200%?
The units are, of course, all kaflooey. One is in production per year of storage capacity, the other is in consumable production.
Annual USA electricity generation is ~ 4 PWh (E15)

For conversion of BESS to generation I use:
4 hour daily storage
33% capacity factor as an amalgam of PV and wind, so one unit of power collect 8 hours of energy units

That works out to 1 unit of storage supporting 2 units of clean energy power
So 2 TWh of BESS supports 4 TW of clean energy power which will generate 11.6 PWh a year.
300%

World:
About 155 PWh a year of source energy,
So about 50 PWh a year of clean energy

If we figure the capacity lifetime of BESS as 10 years and
a unit of BESS supporting 11.6/2 = 5.8 units of consumption then
1 TWh of annual battery production needed at steady state.

For now, but keep in mind that humans multiply like cockroaches.
 
Last edited: