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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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i haven't kept up with every post, but i assumed the posts i saw about it were being facetious. i hope nobody really expects the resale value of their used car to go up instead of down.

If a Model 3 with hardware 3 actually achieves Level 5 autonomy a used Model 3 may very well go up in price. As demand for Level 5 vehicles far exceeds supply and if the vehicle is good for 1M miles and battery pack is good for 300k-500k miles.

Those are a huge massive IFs.
 
There is lot’s of talk about NoA performance on HW2. I think this will be irrelevant shortly.

The new chipset will allow vastly more neurons in the network, vastly larger matrices to solve, and give dramatically improved performance.

What’s neat is that none of us have seen HW3 perform yet.

I don’t expect the investor event to show a polished, fully automated experience. But I believe it will be able to show general handling of stoplights, intersections, and be able to navigate from one place to another (perhaps with some safety driver intervention).

Even if Tesla can do a demo with a few interventions for unusual cases while getting from one end of town to the other, this will show how far along Tesla is. Zero intervention should not be expected or needed at this point. It’s the pace of innovation that matters. Tesla has gotten where they are, from scratch, in just a few short years. That’s amazing.

Tesla already has the system in a deployable package. It’s already on cars being sold. Tesla is collecting or has the potential to collect more data than anyone else.

Tesla’s solution is vision-based and therefore cheaper than LIDAR systems.

If they can even demonstrate that they are roughly on a path to autonomy within a few years, I think the stock will see a big uptick.

Look at what the hugely-valued Waymo has going against it (and I don’t mean to pick on Waymo, their research has obviously pushed the boundaries of autonomous driving):

1. Their system is not packaged for production. Sensors hanging all over the roof. Not reasonably deployable in a production vehicle without significant repackaging and a deal with auto manufacturers.

2. Includes LIDAR, which raises the price of the system.

3. Relies on geofenced, detailed mapping data in a small geographic area which means it doesn’t scale and can only be used in a limited area.

NONE of these problems apply to Tesla. Their system is already packaged and deployed, they avoid the extra cost of LIDAR, and it’s a general solution.

If Tesla can even show that they’re getting close—even if they have to take over a few times during a demo—that will still be worth a lot to the share price, I think.
And they're developing their system on Chrysler Pacificas which (I believe) are hybrids, i.e. ICE cars with an adjunct battery
 
Only if customers are willing to pony up for FSD. I'm interested in a Model Y and there's a zero percent chance I would pay for FSD if it increases in price beyond what it is now.
When the day comes that one can read emails stress-free in the car while it drives you to your destinations, everyone would be willing to have that for whatever the price Tesla would reasonably charge. Assuming 1 hour in your car per day that is 365 hours of your time! Even at minimum wage that is worth more than 3k per year.
 
Ok, I am prepared to be flayed for writing this. But regardless of these Elon tweets I'd wager a fair number of shekels that any price increase in the near future is going to be nominal. I've seen people on Tesla Facebook groups call Elons recent methods reminiscent of traditional car salesmanship with a couple going so far as to call it sleazy. I understand the need to pull sales in right now and as an investor I'm glad they are doing what they need to. But we would be naive to think that all of the whipsawing that Tesla is doing right now isn't impacting buyer and owner perceptions of the company and the value proposition of the vehicles.

If they were to significantly increase the price of the software it would have a corresponding decrease in the take rate which is clearly not what Tesla wants or needs right now. The Tesla Fully Autonomous Network is likely nothing more than a pipe dream for the next several years. Even if Tesla can work miracles, they have to get legal approval, that process will not happen overnight.

I agree that Tesla needs to settle down on the price changes. The "simplify production" explanation won't keep flying.

However, I firmly believe Tesla wants to minimize [the number of] sales of FSD and allow the features to mature and improve quite a bit more before it's on the streets in great numbers. No reason to have Joe Blow out there with a beta version of this product. Keep the price high enough that only (or mostly) very responsible, and older buyers can afford it. The failure rate due to inattention (which isn't really a failure of the product) will be minimized and the bad press will be avoided.
 
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This is worth watching if you want to evaluate your risks. You don't have to agree. I don't agree with conclusions, but it's worth knowing your risks if you're person that would take the red pill...
If you are a blue pill type of person, no need to see this video.

To conclude, best bear theses I've ever seen. Actually, more precisely, the only one that wasn't moronic.

@Zhelko Dimic, I went through the Real Vision video, personally I think his thought process is wrong and I don't agree with most of his points. I would appreciate if you can list a few points that make sense. I will try to explain my thought process. If the discussion end up showing he is right, I am wrong, that may help more than just myself.
 
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Ok, I am prepared to be flayed for writing this. But regardless of these Elon tweets I'd wager a fair number of shekels that any price increase in the near future is going to be nominal. I've seen people on Tesla Facebook groups call Elons recent methods reminiscent of traditional car salesmanship with a couple going so far as to call it sleazy. I understand the need to pull sales in right now and as an investor I'm glad they are doing what they need to. But we would be naive to think that all of the whipsawing that Tesla is doing right now isn't impacting buyer and owner perceptions of the company and the value proposition of the vehicles.

If they were to significantly increase the price of the software it would have a corresponding decrease in the take rate which is clearly not what Tesla wants or needs right now. The Tesla Fully Autonomous Network is likely nothing more than a pipe dream for the next several years. Even if Tesla can work miracles, they have to get legal approval, that process will not happen overnight.


I believe all ridesharing vehicles in China must be electric in the next 2 years. I believe the Tesla network is primarily for China plus regulatory approval will be faster there. I believe that will be highlighted on the investor day event.
 
I agree that Tesla needs to settle down on the price changes. The "simplify production" explanation won't keep flying.

However, I firmly believe Tesla wants to minimize [the number of] sales of FSD and allow the features to mature and improve quite a bit more before it's on the streets in great numbers. No reason to have Joe Blow out there with a beta version of this product. Keep the price high enough that only (or mostly) very responsible, and older buyers can afford it. The failure rate due to inattention (which isn't really a failure of the product) will be minimized and the bad press will be avoided.

Here is why I disagreed... everything I see points to him trying to increase, not limit, the sale of FSD (adj prices from low to higher with sales and Apr 22). As someone quite familiar with beta testing, you absolutetly want feedback from Joe Blow.
Then there is the need for a profit. And price changes are working, you can see it just following this thread. So, sorry, I dont agree with any of your statements.
 
I went through his video, personally I think his thought process is wrong and I don't agree with most of his points. I would appreciate if you can list a few points that make sense. I will try to explain my though process. If the discussion end up showing he is right, I am wrong, that may help more than just myself.
Disagree or don't understand? No reasons? Fishing are we?
 
This is myopic.

I don't care about profit - I care about the mission. Tesla could be profitable right now if they decided to only sell high margin variants and forgo CapEx on new factories, etc.

Tesla is a growth company at present and will be for the foreseeable future.

Long Term Profits and The Mission are almost perfectly aligned.
 
Ok, I am prepared to be flayed for writing this. But regardless of these Elon tweets I'd wager a fair number of shekels that any price increase in the near future is going to be nominal. I've seen people on Tesla Facebook groups call Elons recent methods reminiscent of traditional car salesmanship with a couple going so far as to call it sleazy. I understand the need to pull sales in right now and as an investor I'm glad they are doing what they need to. But we would be naive to think that all of the whipsawing that Tesla is doing right now isn't impacting buyer and owner perceptions of the company and the value proposition of the vehicles.

If they were to significantly increase the price of the software it would have a corresponding decrease in the take rate which is clearly not what Tesla wants or needs right now. The Tesla Fully Autonomous Network is likely nothing more than a pipe dream for the next several years. Even if Tesla can work miracles, they have to get legal approval, that process will not happen overnight.
When true level5 autonomy actually comes to pass (and I think we are still a little ways off, even with recent hints and speculations to the contrary), I think the price for full self driving will quadruple from current rates. The implications are just too significant not to.

Dan
 
When true level5 autonomy actually comes to pass (and I think we are still a little ways off, even with recent hints and speculations to the contrary), I think the price for full self driving will quadruple from current rates. The implications are just too significant not to.

Dan

Dan, I think this is a fair assessment. Ideally we get there well ahead of any competitive forces. Hopefully the upcoming event will shed some light on how far along we are. Sitting here today, level 5 feels as though its a very distant dream.
 
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While everyone is dreaming about Tesla Network and driverless cars, I would just like to note the more near-term benefit of showing up near FSD like capabilities - Tesla will be able to sell basically all cars with a ~ $10,000 FSD upgrade.

That's a nice extra 5 billion dollars of profit per year at 500,000 cars per year.

I get the feeling that's not been properly accounted for in TSLA's current valuation :)
 
When the day comes that one can read emails stress-free in the car while it drives you to your destinations, everyone would be willing to have that for whatever the price Tesla would reasonably charge.

Reading email is never a stress-free event for me. Tesla can have all my money if they can solve that. :D
 
Disagree or don't understand? No reasons? Fishing are we?

@SOULPEDL, You want to know what I really wanted to say?

- Jay Van Sciver in that Real Vision interview is an idiot. Most of the things he said is stupid. His "short at $270, price target $50 within 12 months" conclusion is also stupid.

I respect Zhelko Dimic, so I would like to know which part makes him think this Real Vision video has good argument. I'm ready to explain my points. That's all.