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Bear case from James Cat



His bearish 1.8 million deliveries is WS bull case.
This is fairly realistic of what to expect with a cruddy economy. Like the fact that many potential revenue streams were zeroed out or low.

5 dollar per share would be a win for 2023 in a recession. A 20 PE in a stagnant / bear market gives us a 100 SP. Tough stuff, but if that were truly 100% the low, something to be happy with. Model presented leaves many areas of potential upside so maybe this is the case.

if there is a recession and Tesla still delivers 1.8 million, it would be hard to fathom what would be going on in OEM land.

What if there is no recession? Wouldn’t that be nice….
 
BYD and Tesla don't need to be engaged in a flight to the death, there are plenty of less competitive players who will be totally unable to defend their market share.

German and Japanese ICE cars in China head the list of very likely extinctions, a process that has already started.
All your points are great, and especially this one. Tesla is competing mostly against ICE vehicles in China and elsewhere.
 
Bear case from James Cat



His bearish 1.8 million deliveries is WS bull case.

The 1.8m deliveries is really flat to 2022 run-rate + new products/markets.

425k (Q4 Exit rate)
x 4
1,700k (run-rate)
...100k (Cybertrunk, Semi, new Markets e.g. Thailand, Turkey, etc)
1,800k

The cat has asp coming down from $53k to $50k and you have the $7.5 credit in the US. That's a pretty severe bear case.
 
Are there any evidence of the CCP chasing out foreign companies that doesn't deal with censorship? I am talking about any industry that's doesn't infringe on China's ability to control propaganda. Being unfriendly to google has nothing to do with wanting baidu to succeed but everything to do with government censorship.
Again...so so so freaking many they can't be listed. All of Australias resource sector to start with. Cisco had nothing to do with censorship. White paint has nothing to do with censor ship. Neither does milk or iron ore. Neither do wood cabinets which gets very close to home.
 
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The 1.8m deliveries is really flat to 2022 run-rate + new products/markets.

425k (Q4 Exit rate)
x 4
1,700k (run-rate)
...100k (Cybertrunk, Semi, new Markets e.g. Thailand, Turkey, etc)
1,800k

The cat has asp coming down from $53k to $50k and you have the $7.5 credit in the US. That's a pretty severe bear case.
Or maybe not...time will tell. EM think we could have a bone crusher of a recession.
 
Are there any evidence of the CCP chasing out foreign companies that doesn't deal with censorship? I am talking about any industry that's doesn't infringe on China's ability to control propaganda. Being unfriendly to google has nothing to do with wanting baidu to succeed but everything to do with government censorship.
I have had Western clients & friends & colleagues with factories in China that after a decade found their tech cloned, and the orders dried up. We are definitely not talking the normal operation of market economies. Multiple industries. And the competitors were all either fully or partially state-owned (a variety of arrangements). These were in various forms of energy & transportation. Some kept their factories going (just about), others closed up in China and left (pursued by the competition they had 'enabled') I'm talking factories ranging from 20-people to 2,000-people; and everything from small family firms to multinational corporations. I've visited some of the remaining sites, and for that matter some of the clones.

So yes it does happen.

It is a rough game in China. The same thing happens to some of the local businesses. The same stuff happens in many countries, but (outside of the extractive industries) not normally to the same extent.
 
I have had Western clients & friends & colleagues with factories in China that after a decade found their tech cloned, and the orders dried up. We are definitely not talking the normal operation of market economies. Multiple industries. And the competitors were all either fully or partially state-owned (a variety of arrangements). These were in various forms of energy & transportation. Some kept their factories going (just about), others closed up in China and left (pursued by the competition they had 'enabled') I'm talking factories ranging from 20-people to 2,000-people; and everything from small family firms to multinational corporations. I've visited some of the remaining sites, and for that matter some of the clones.

So yes it does happen.

It is a rough game in China. The same thing happens to some of the local businesses. The same stuff happens in many countries, but (outside of the extractive industries) not normally to the same extent.
Oh yeah, the game is rougher than normal in China as there's minimal oversight and protections against copyright infringement. Little red tape works wonder for first movers, however it also provides a clone competitor an easy way to catch up. Brand positioning and ecosystem are very important. Apple should have been crushed in China by cheap andriod clones but has held up well. Lets hope Tesla follows in a similar footstep.
 
You know if Leo doesn't have any margins then why is he hating when he can buy Tesla at current levels? Tesla is executing better than anytime in history which is the CEO's job. What exactly did Elon do this quarter that shows objectively he is "sleeping at the wheel" -Dan Ive? I still see cost cutting, record production, record deliveries, and record profits.

Can people point me to this gigantic build up of inventory, employees going on strike, factories shutting down due to politics, and sales diving?
 
Merry Christmas to all!

There is no Model 3/Y inventory for SoCal on the site currently.
 

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Or maybe not...time will tell. EM think we could have a bone crusher of a recession.
Slight Correction. Elon thinks it is possible we will have a bad one but not necessarily likely. He doesn’t pin himself down, but after listening to him speak about this over many convos it seems he thinks it more likely a mild to moderate recession.
 
Slight Correction. Elon thinks it is possible we will have a bad one but not necessarily likely. He doesn’t pin himself down, but after listening to him speak about this over many convos it seems he thinks it more likely a mild to moderate recession.
To be clear, even though currently we feel like the recession is no where near 2009 levels, this is because Elon believes the implosion of car loan defaults haven't happened yet. If the Fed doesn't play their cards right, the hard landing and severe recession he speaks off happen when that house of cards fall. Maybe these big auto can handle it, maybe employment is good enough to scrap by and doesn't result into a massive wave of defaults. Elon has expressed concerns on the cracks under the bridge that is the auto loan market.
 
This is fairly realistic of what to expect with a cruddy economy. Like the fact that many potential revenue streams were zeroed out or low.

5 dollar per share would be a win for 2023 in a recession. A 20 PE in a stagnant / bear market gives us a 100 SP. Tough stuff, but if that were truly 100% the low, something to be happy with. Model presented leaves many areas of potential upside so maybe this is the case.

if there is a recession and Tesla still delivers 1.8 million, it would be hard to fathom what would be going on in OEM land.

What if there is no recession? Wouldn’t that be nice….
I’m going to disagree because the 1.9m is only very slightly above what we are expecting in Q4 this year on annualized basis.

Car sales don’t drop to zero in a recession. Not even luxury cars. Because EVs are still only a single digit percentage of sales in most markets there is still plenty of room to grow absolute volumes. Especially with the margins that Tesla has.

Plus I can’t follow how this forecasts factors in the IRA. If ave selling price to Tesla is under $40k then the consumer is getting a model Y for $33k? If so the demand in the US alone will be astronomical.
 
@Gigapress posted something that I believe you'll find in the Moderator's Posts of Merit (whatever that thread is called). Sometime over the last 3ish months?

I don't remember the details - I remember part of the conclusion being that the benefit to Tesla may be so large that the entire IRA gets rescinded well before when the legislation is intended to end.


Here we go:

The concluding paragraph:
Since I was quoted I’ll respond. It should be noted there were a few errors in that first pass at estimating the law’s impact.

1) It’s more likely than not that Tesla won’t produce 40 GWh of storage next year. If you’re using my model as a starting point for short term estimates, especially if you think it’s likely Republicans will take over both Congress and the Presidency in 2024 and eliminate the subsidies in 2025, then you’ll probably want to revise those estimates down.

2) I did not account for Model Y initially being the only eligible model due to S/X/3 being excluded due to MSRP limits and the LFP cells being imported from China. The impact of the $7500 credit should therefore be cut approximately in half in the early years compared to my original estimate. Nevertheless I would still assume Tesla will eventually reduce prices and onshore battery production for 3 RWD to gain eligibility and also save costs and environmental damage of long-distance shipping.

3) The lower right corner of the table mistakenly shows a sum of sums for $2,200B total subsidy. $670B was actually the total estimate.

4) The initial estimates were way too conservative about Semi ramp. I didn’t have Tesla making 50k per year until 2030. Since then we’ve gotten guidance for achieving that rate around 2024.

5) Compounding the initial poor guess about Semi ramp is that I didn’t realize the Commercial Clean Vehicles credit would add as much as $40k extra per truck in addition to the $45/kWh for batteries. This approximately doubles the subsidy per truck.

Other notes:

The estimate is mainly a function of the estimates of Tesla’s growth and how much they make when at serious scale after like 2027, and this is inherently very uncertain. I just hypothetically showed what would happen if growth is roughly in line with Tesla’s public goals and if Tesla biases for growing faster here in the United States than elsewhere to capture these benefits that are, as far as I’m aware, uniquely huge compared to other primary EV and battery markets. No matter how I look at it, these subsidies are by themselves worth about as much as Tesla’s current market cap if Tesla can grow production remotely as fast as planned.

This did not encapsulate estimates of the benefits accruing to solar, mining and refining of critical minerals, charging infrastructure, because these are minor in comparison.

Overall, it remains true that the biggest single questions are how fast Tesla will scale in the USA and how long this law will last as-is, especially with most of the expected benefit to Tesla coming 5+ years from now when they’re producing at drastically higher scale than today.
 
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