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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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This is not been my experience at all. Their proprietary approach to service has only caused delays and incompetence. They are finally coming next week, allegedly, because it usually gets pushed to fix my passenger restraint system. The price has gone up $20 since last fall when they didn’t have the parts.

This is the service appointment for my girlfriends Tesla, to come and flip the cabin view camera. It’s amazing that this was not caught during Tesla’s QA. We did not know till the new in cabin view was available on the app. I’m sure it didn’t affect the safety score.

A normal person would try to schedule both service visits at the same time. Since they are coming to the same house twice in a week. Not sure how I can do this with Tesla.



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Actually.. Got that recall notice about inspecting/tightening up that rear seat/rear seat belt bolt. Set up the appointment, then added an issue: The recall for the harness in the rear trunk lid for a 2018 M3 LR RWD.

They did both with no arguments. What was your question?
 
I thought this photo in the report looked different than usual too. Love seeing it from a manufacturing engineer point of view, but I don't recall seeing so MANY robots of varying tasks together like this before. Not this clustered at least.
I think it only looks different because we're looking at the 2 different levels of robots from mostly above which makes them appear so congested and flattened by the lens on that camera. I think they cars still index like before, but this is only in China that I've seen (2-story Factory).
 
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i'd love to see a luxury SUV that doesn't look like an egg on wheels, a pickup truck that actually fits in the average garage, a work van (aka the kind of vehicle most actual workers use), and yes the sub-compact "euro-sized" car currently under development.

the S3XY lineup is too limited in variety for current long-term growth targets, and Tesla has been too slow getting new products to market.
This from Earnings call transcript emphasis mine

Elon Musk -- Chief Executive Officer and Product Architect

Well, I was basically saying that, yes, but I'm not going to give you details because this is -- nice try, nice try. Yes, of course, of course. So -- we actually always look at like, what is the limiting factor for new vehicles? Because if the -- for the longest time, we've been constrained on total cell lithium-ion production output. And so, people said, like, why not bring this other car to market or that other car to market? Well, it doesn't really help if all you're doing is shuffling around the batteries from one car to another.

In fact, it hurts because you add complexity but you don't add incremental volume. So it's sort of pointless, in fact, like counterproductive to add model complexity without solving the availability of lithium-ion batteries. So as we get -- so we want new product introduction to match where the cells are available or that new product to use those cells without cannibalizing the cells of the other cars. That's the actual limiting factor if we need new models, not anything else, really.
 
I don’t know how 1.8mm production is a lowball. If they do that in 2023 and increase 50% per year, they hit 20mm at the end of 2029, which is in line with 20 million annually by 2030, right?
It is lowball because our run rate was 1.76 million exiting 2022.

It would be very tough to hit 2.7m vehicles/ year in 2024 (what that 50% average suggests) if we exit 2023 with a run rate of 1.8 - 1.9m per year. It’s a matter of momentum in my eyes. To stay on their “50% per year“ average growth line, they need to ship 2.7m vehicles in 2024. The lower the run rate is coming out of 2023, the harder it is for them to hit that target. For example, if they exit 2023 with a run rate of 2.1m vehicles/ year, they have to grow 53% in 2024 just to keep up.

With a 2.1m run rate exiting 2023, Tesla would ship around 1.9m vehicles (assuming flat growth over the year). So either Tesla is planning on next year being a “catch up year” with much greater than 50% growth, or they are going to blow through that 1.8m number.

Maybe I need to make a spreadsheet to explain it. But 1.8 is a weirdly low number for a lot of reasons.
 
This from Earnings call transcript emphasis mine

Elon Musk -- Chief Executive Officer and Product Architect

Well, I was basically saying that, yes, but I'm not going to give you details because this is -- nice try, nice try. Yes, of course, of course. So -- we actually always look at like, what is the limiting factor for new vehicles? Because if the -- for the longest time, we've been constrained on total cell lithium-ion production output. And so, people said, like, why not bring this other car to market or that other car to market? Well, it doesn't really help if all you're doing is shuffling around the batteries from one car to another.

In fact, it hurts because you add complexity but you don't add incremental volume. So it's sort of pointless, in fact, like counterproductive to add model complexity without solving the availability of lithium-ion batteries. So as we get -- so we want new product introduction to match where the cells are available or that new product to use those cells without cannibalizing the cells of the other cars. That's the actual limiting factor if we need new models, not anything else, really.
Related: was there any question about lithium mining in Texas or refining? Or any updates since battery day for processing lithium? Last heard that any lithium production is basically a money printing machine with margins like software companies.
 
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The 50% yoy growth with the red and blue lines shows deliveries and the 1.8 million number mentioned. What if the plan for 2023 is to make Robotaxi devices and not sell them to customers but keep them for the future fleet therefor not delivered? /tinfoil hat
I’d need to see a lot more progress on FSD & Robotaxi to get excited about this idea.

Still feels like Robotaxi is 3-5 years out.
 
I imagine everyone has seen CNBC this morning, but I didn't see it mentioned. Their headline:

Tesla shares pop on ‘better than feared’ earnings results, demand outlook​

"Better than feared"? Feared by who? CNBC?? Are they simply saying that their analysts are incompetent?

 
Past profit on energy might not be a good predictor of profit when Lathrop is operating at scale.
Yes… but if we’d had 60% - 80% margins and the sort of volume the Tesla Energy hyper-bulls predicted, we’d see much more than 7%.

Don’t get me wrong. Tesla energy is fantastic. It’s just not the Jesus product line that some people were talking up in the past few weeks.
 
OK. There's been a couple of derogatory comments about HW4 in here, mainly along the lines of, "Older cars won't get the upgrade!" and such. This is probably not the right thread, but there's a financial bit that may be of interest.

As a sometimes ASIC designer, I can report on this thing: The physically smaller an ASIC is, the better yield one gets on ASIC production. On a given silicon wafer, the number of defects on the wafer has been (and continues to be) pretty much a constant. Bits of dust, problems with the crystalline lattice, etc.

So, yeah, build an ASIC that uses up an entire 8" wafer; the maximum yield might be considered to be 1 ASIC per wafer, which is truly not great. But the bigger problem is that the real yield will be Zero because of that background defect problem: That ASIC will have a bunch of defects on it that will kill it.

So, the better bet is to have gazillions of tiny little ASICs, the smaller the better, built on the wafer. Even before the diamond saw comes down and dices the wafer into individual ASICs, testing machines cometh down from on high and does a basic, "Does it work or not?" and puts (typically) a red dot on each dead one. So, if one has a 8" wafer with 1000 dies on it, one will end up with a dozen or two dead ones because of the defects, the rest will be fine.

Next: There's this metric, "line width", which is how narrow a feature one can etch into the semiconductor. What it also means: The smaller the line width, the area of the transistor goes down by the square. Go from 10 nm to 5 nm, and, in the same area, one has quadrupled the number of transistors one can put on the die.

Finally, there's the capacitance of those transistors. You'll have to take my word for it, but the capacitance of a transistor, which is proportional to the area of the transistor, determines the speed of an ASIC, as well as its power dissipation. The general, back of the envelope calculation for power dissipation is

P = C*V*V

So, what happens when one gets a line width reduction? One can mess with things, but:
  • If one keeps the same number of transistors in an ASIC, the yield goes up. Cost goes down.. lots.
  • If one keeps the same number of transistors on an ASIC and runs at the same clock speed, the power dissipation drops. Lots. By the by: That improves reliability, since failure rates track with temperature.
  • If one keeps the same number of transistors on an ASIC and runs the clock at the square of the difference in line widths, the power dissipation stays roughly the same, but one gets higher performance. At less cost.
In practice, if one is happy with the yield one is getting before the line shrink, one can build an ASIC with a quadruple number of transistors and, as a result, more complex functionality with roughly the same power dissipation. This is where Intel and AMD make their money.

If you're wondering, the stuff above is why Moore's Law works. (And, yeah, Moore's Law is slowing down these days, but isn't dead yet.)

Lots of choices for the engineer. But, during the latest earnings call, I listened to the question about retrofitting HW4 onto earlier cars, and if it was necessary to get FSD on the existing cars. Musk definitely hesitated, but stated that HW3 should be able to do the job.

And that's the point. The current driving computer, neural network processors and all, was designed back in 2018. It's 2022/2023 now, that's 4 or 5 years. Line widths have shrunk since 2018. This is Tesla: I wouldn't be surprised if HW4 has some improvements in performance (well, they've been programming the baby, they probably have things they wanted fixed), but I'm betting they were looking for cheaper ASICs, lower power ASICs, probably by a factor of two or three, with increased performance a distant third place.

What this means: Reducing the cost of goods to build the car. Not about needing it to get FSD to work.

Could be wrong, but doubt it.
 
Why does everyone (specifically youtubers/analysts) see volume production of the Cybertruck not ramping until '24 as a "big deal"? I would think that was expected. They are just starting production with a radically new design, new production technology, new battery tech and a new facility-hardly a surprise that it will take time to ramp. GM in comparison started building the Hummer EV over a year ago and is still not ramped-having built only around 5000 for the entire year, and it's basically a repackaged P/U with batteries and motors. If Tesla can build 1-5k CTs by the end of the year I read that as a big win.
Because a lot of us are super excited by Cybertruck and there have been a lot of delays. Last year this time it sounded very much like Cybertruck production would start as soon as Model Y ramp finished… that hasn’t really materialized. Just feels a lot like a subtle setup for another delay.

Just last earnings I think management said “Volume Production” was year end 2023 and now it seems to have been moved to 2024. Musk’s comments about very slow initial growth did not sound particularly bullish for Cybertruck reservation holders either.

Given the lack of communication around many of the prior delays, there is a lot of frustration.

Mostly, you have over a million people who are dealing with a 18-24 months delay. Frustration is going to be high.
 
I'm surprised there isn't more of short squeeze going on. Maybe the weak shorts are closing out and the crazy ones are doubling down on their short positions
In 2020, when TSLA was up 743%, a large part of the volume for the year was short-covering. I'd give it a little more than 3 1/2 hours, before drawing any conclusions about the shorts.
 
OK. There's been a couple of derogatory comments about HW4 in here, mainly along the lines of, "Older cars won't get the upgrade!" and such. This is probably not the right thread, but there's a financial bit that may be of interest.

As a sometimes ASIC designer, I can report on this thing: The physically smaller an ASIC is, the better yield one gets on ASIC production. On a given silicon wafer, the number of defects on the wafer has been (and continues to be) pretty much a constant. Bits of dust, problems with the crystalline lattice, etc.

So, yeah, build an ASIC that uses up an entire 8" wafer; the maximum yield might be considered to be 1 ASIC per wafer, which is truly not great. But the bigger problem is that the real yield will be Zero because of that background defect problem: That ASIC will have a bunch of defects on it that will kill it.

So, the better bet is to have gazillions of tiny little ASICs, the smaller the better, built on the wafer. Even before the diamond saw comes down and dices the wafer into individual ASICs, testing machines cometh down from on high and does a basic, "Does it work or not?" and puts (typically) a red dot on each dead one. So, if one has a 8" wafer with 1000 dies on it, one will end up with a dozen or two dead ones because of the defects, the rest will be fine.

Next: There's this metric, "line width", which is how narrow a feature one can etch into the semiconductor. What it also means: The smaller the line width, the area of the transistor goes down by the square. Go from 10 nm to 5 nm, and, in the same area, one has quadrupled the number of transistors one can put on the die.

Finally, there's the capacitance of those transistors. You'll have to take my word for it, but the capacitance of a transistor, which is proportional to the area of the transistor, determines the speed of an ASIC, as well as its power dissipation. The general, back of the envelope calculation for power dissipation is

P = C*V*V

So, what happens when one gets a line width reduction? One can mess with things, but:
  • If one keeps the same number of transistors in an ASIC, the yield goes up. Cost goes down.. lots.
  • If one keeps the same number of transistors on an ASIC and runs at the same clock speed, the power dissipation drops. Lots. By the by: That improves reliability, since failure rates track with temperature.
  • If one keeps the same number of transistors on an ASIC and runs the clock at the square of the difference in line widths, the power dissipation stays roughly the same, but one gets higher performance. At less cost.
In practice, if one is happy with the yield one is getting before the line shrink, one can build an ASIC with a quadruple number of transistors and, as a result, more complex functionality with roughly the same power dissipation. This is where Intel and AMD make their money.

If you're wondering, the stuff above is why Moore's Law works. (And, yeah, Moore's Law is slowing down these days, but isn't dead yet.)

Lots of choices for the engineer. But, during the latest earnings call, I listened to the question about retrofitting HW4 onto earlier cars, and if it was necessary to get FSD on the existing cars. Musk definitely hesitated, but stated that HW3 should be able to do the job.

And that's the point. The current driving computer, neural network processors and all, was designed back in 2018. It's 2022/2023 now, that's 4 or 5 years. Line widths have shrunk since 2018. This is Tesla: I wouldn't be surprised if HW4 has some improvements in performance (well, they've been programming the baby, they probably have things they wanted fixed), but I'm betting they were looking for cheaper ASICs, lower power ASICs, probably by a factor of two or three, with increased performance a distant third place.

What this means: Reducing the cost of goods to build the car. Not about needing it to get FSD to work.

Could be wrong, but doubt it.
While your points regarding die area are valid, a die shrink would not increase performance/ safety by the 2x factor Elon(?) mentioned [edit: unless it allowed a much higher clock rate]. Doubling the cores (or compute) per die while shinking the individual core size could allow both smaller chips and higher performance at a potentially lower cost.
 
I’d need to see a lot more progress on FSD & Robotaxi to get excited about this idea.

Still feels like Robotaxi is 3-5 years out.
Agreed. We are seeing incremental improvements every update. But at this rate I would think a robotaxi level 4 vehicle is at least a decade away if not more. A 15 minute trip across town is actually not to dramatic now, but if a cop was following it would easily rack up thousands of dollars in fines and would definitely get pulled over for drunk driving.

Probably the strangest issue with no improvement is still moving out of the correct lane for a turn half a block before a turn. And then it’s a traffic stopper to get back in the correct lane. If there has been zero improvement in something this basic I would think there is a long way to go.

Jmho.