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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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So my wife's car was hit, 4 airbags went off, and I'm looking at replacement cars.

TSLA is too low for me to just buy a Tesla without considering cost of insurance so I'm researching insurance.

4 of the 5 most expensive cars to insure are EVs and the 2 most expensive are Tesla.

Even if you don't think Tesla insurance is a direct money maker for TSLA, it clearly affects cost of ownership and thus affordability for lower income buyers to get into a Tesla. So I'm saying if Tesla insurance is run near 0 profit it still will increase profitability of TSLA by way of increasing demand for cars they produce, and the effect that has on pricing of the car to begin with.

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I'm not emotionally tied to it one way or another. I'm looking at whether it makes to invest at this current valuation.

Just because it's their plan, doesn't mean its going to make the market cap go higher.

I don't know why you mention other OEMs, if we were evaluating Tesla's automotive financials in a similar light to other OEMs, the share price would be like $50. Do you think other OEMs have PE ratios of 60? No, they're like 10.

Yes, Tesla's strategy will bring them a large market share in the future. No one is arguing against that?

I'm addressing what the future valuation could look like. You are not talking about that at all.

Have you understood what Tony Seba has presented on the history of technological disruptions over the past century and a half?

I'm looking at this from a point of view that what Tesla specifically (and Elon in general) is doing will happen on an S-curve that tracks the path that every such disruptive transition through the entire industrial and tech revolutions has demonstrated with staggering consistency.

The only question is at what point on that S-curve does Tesla find itself today? This is anyone's guess.

I'm not talking about valuations because people like Cathie Wood, Tony Seba, Elon himself, and others have given their informed estimates for future valuation for the sort of companies that bring major disruption to any long-entrenched slice of the market. Overall, their numbers are in agreement for valuation. When, is another matter entirely.

I'm comfortable with these target numbers, and simultaneously realize how we do not know with any certainty when these targets will be reached. The very nature of an S-curve supports how this point is more likely to arrive sooner than later. What "sooner" means in months or years won't be known until after the fact. Sort of like how a recession cannot be defined to have happened until afterwards.

For me, spending time attempting to quantify that point with any hope of certainty would be time spent on stock astrology. I don't believe anyone can do any better than to guess when it will happen. Some might even get that answer correct, but, it will be due more to luck than it will be due to prescience on their part.

This is a gray area that doesn't lend useful data upon which to develop a short term investment strategy.
 
I'm not emotionally tied to it one way or another. I'm looking at whether it makes to invest at this current valuation.

Just because it's their plan, doesn't mean its going to make the market cap go higher.

I don't know why you mention other OEMs, if we were evaluating Tesla's automotive financials in a similar light to other OEMs, the share price would be like $50. Do you think other OEMs have PE ratios of 60? No, they're like 10.

Yes, Tesla's strategy will bring them a large market share in the future. No one is arguing against that?

I'm addressing what the future valuation could look like. You are not talking about that at all.

I know many here disagree with you, but honestly I agree for the most part. Tesla's auto production growth is slowing drastically, at least for the next few years. Prices will likely come down even more thereby either maintaining current margins or possibly even lowering them more, Giga Mexico is at least two years away from production start, and Gen3 is still two years away in Austin. CT ramp and Megapacks will help the fundamentals slowly over time but neither will be huge catalysts anytime soon. This is why I feel TSLA will trade mostly sideways for the next year or two, at least within the $150-$300 channel.

The future of Tesla looks incredibly sunny, but Tesla robotaxis and humanoids are still many years away from helping TSLA go higher. Once either of them are deployed into the real world TSLA will certainly explode upwards. Neither are happening anytime soon though.

It's important to keep in mind that this is Tesla though. There could easily be surprise catalysts which could completely change how I'm expecting this to play out.
 
So my wife's car was hit, 4 airbags went off, and I'm looking at replacement cars.

TSLA is too low for me to just buy a Tesla without considering cost of insurance so I'm researching insurance.

4 of the 5 most expensive cars to insure are EVs and the 2 most expensive are Tesla.

Even if you don't think Tesla insurance is a direct money maker for TSLA, it clearly affects cost of ownership and thus affordability for lower income buyers to get into a Tesla. So I'm saying if Tesla insurance is run near 0 profit it still will increase profitability of TSLA by way of increasing demand for cars they produce, and the effect that has on pricing of the car to begin with.

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That is some crazy high insurance costs. I have a model Y and I am not even close to that amount. My insurance costs is not much more than my wife’s Kia telluride insurance.

I wonder why the insurance for a MY would be so much higher in your area than mine?
 
I know many here disagree with you, but honestly I agree for the most part.

I do agree with the numbers @Zaddy Daddy presents and what that means in real time offers reasonable data, up to a point. I balk at any attempt to use those numbers as a crystal ball to predict the future with enough certainty to bet upon.

Most of what was presented starts out on firm ground, then ventures off with an air of importance onto thin ICE, so to speak. This is the realm of technical analysis, which is not too far removed from Voodoo. At least for me. Maybe some people can crunch enough numbers to make a trail of breadcrumbs to bet on successfully. Most investors do not have the necessary background in complex mathematics to discern useful results.

Predicting the future is always a tricky business.

Fortunately, Tesla is growing in both width and height, as @unk45 posted above. They are going strong in so many directions that this won't fit traditional models for analysis. Most seem to see this part or that part clearly, but rarely do you see any one of them taking it all in.

Cathie Wood is one exception that comes to mind, and she has struggled with predicting the timeline.

@Zaddy Daddy does not seem to be putting all the ingredients into his recipe for evaluating Tesla, and then expecting to determine the elusive "when" that so many grapple with.
 
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That is some crazy high insurance costs. I have a model Y and I am not even close to that amount. My insurance costs is not much more than my wife’s Kia telluride insurance.

I wonder why the insurance for a MY would be so much higher in your area than mine?

That's a national average, not my area vs yours.

And that is general average of all drivers, not me vs you.
 
So my wife's car was hit, 4 airbags went off, and I'm looking at replacement cars.

TSLA is too low for me to just buy a Tesla without considering cost of insurance so I'm researching insurance.

4 of the 5 most expensive cars to insure are EVs and the 2 most expensive are Tesla.

Even if you don't think Tesla insurance is a direct money maker for TSLA, it clearly affects cost of ownership and thus affordability for lower income buyers to get into a Tesla. So I'm saying if Tesla insurance is run near 0 profit it still will increase profitability of TSLA by way of increasing demand for cars they produce, and the effect that has on pricing of the car to begin with.

View attachment 1026389
Those figures you quote are quite high. In fact it seems it costs me less to insure BOTH my 2021 MX Long Range and 2022 MY Performance. Here's my real world Tesla Insurance figures in Ohio....

My Model Y costs $79.12 per month with a 95 safety score driven 16k miles per year
My Model X costs $105.81 per month with a 99 safety score driven 22k miles per year

Additional policy info: $1000 deductible Collison and Comprehensive with Basic Roadside with $45/day rental ($1350max) and WITHOUT gap insurance.
Screenshot_20240310_115823_Tesla.jpg


In short, I have found my Teslas to be suprisingly cheap to insure. The difference in premiums from other vehicles I have owned is quite similar. They key is to drive safely as is measured by Tesla's Safety Score metrics. Generally, FSD will ensure this. Hope this helps!

Lastly, I choose to own Teslas for many reasons, but the safety of my family is foremost. No matter the cost, our lives are worth it. There is no safer vehicle IMO. Human monitored FSD and AP (as they are currently meant to be utilized) are certainly safer than just a human.
 
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On this accident... one theory I have not yet heard is the stalk <-> brake timing of use as partial cause.

One time, I was in Forward, hit the brake then reverse fairly quickly (but sequentially still). To my surprise, it did not go into reverse and instead stayed in Forward. As a result, I pressed the accelerator in sequence and was still going forward. I assume the reverse->forward mirrors what happened to me, but I haven't tested it. Confirmed this on 2 different Model Y's.

This anomaly is likely why they added car animations (and more recently sounds) to these drive transitions. I also wonder if it's partly the reason why stalks are going away. Borderline human error and system compute limitations. (Although other reasons exist like costs and FSD/robotaxi.)

Further, her being unable to exit the vehicle (as it sounded)... frankly, the whole story was very hard to read. The emergency release is still not obvious enough IMO (if that's what happened, IDK).

Some say this story was withheld from the public (earlier in this thread). ChatGPT4 claims it occurred on Feb 11th so we only hear about this a full month later? My alarm bells are ringing folks, and I wouldn't be surprise if this is related to why we don't have V12 yet - abundance of caution.

Also, what business does her husband have with Dubai?
 
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Gotcha. I misread your post. I thought you were researching what your insurance would cost you if you bought a Model Y to compare against other potential cars you are looking at.

I am researching what my insurance would cost me but that screenshot was from an article listing the most expensive cars to insure.

So the context of my situation is correct, the context of the screenshot is not specific to me.
 
Those figures you quote are quite high. In fact it seems it costs me less to insure BOTH my 2021 MXLR and 2022 MY Performance. Here's my real world Tesla Insurance figures in Ohio....

My Model Y costs $79.12 per month with a 95 safety score driven 16k miles per year
My Model X costs $105.81 per month with a 99 safety score driven 22k miles per year

Additional policy info: $1000 deductible Collison and Comprehensive with Basic Roadside with $45/day rental ($1350max) and WITHOUT gap insurance.

In short, I have found my Teslas to be suprisingly cheap to insure. The difference in premiums from other vehicles I have owned is quite similar. They key is to drive safely as is measure by Teslas Safety Score metrics. Generally, FSD will ensure this. Hope this helps!

Lastly, I choose own Teslas for many reasons, but the safety of my family is foremost. No matter the cost, our lives are worth it. There is no safer vehicle IMO. Human monitored FSD and AP (as they are currently meant to be utilized) are certainly safer than just a human.

No Tesla insurance in my state yet so insurance prices are higher here. Safety Scores in the app won't help me.

I'm not done doing comparisons with all the insurance companies I'll be checking but here is a 1 company comparison with my actual household information involved:

This is 6 months coverage (double the cost if you want to see a yearly figure)

Liberty $636 (2015 Leaf + 2020 Leaf. $1,000 deductible, $250k/500k)
Liberty $927 (2015 leaf + 2020 Tesla Model 3, $1,000 deductible, $250k/500k)

with the $4,000 used car credit in play I can

Buy a used 2020 Leaf for about $13k - 4k, and end up spending about 10K
Buy a used 2020 Model 3 for about $22k (I haven't confirmed I can get the 4k tax break on it), but lets assume I get it for $18k.

Then it looks like $600+ a year extra cost for insurance on the Model 3 vs the Leaf.

Yes the Model 3 is clearly the better car, but at roughly twice the up front cost and adding higher insurance costs, I might have to skip it this go round and get a Tesla later in the year when either used car prices come down or TSLA goes up. Or even for Tesla insurance to come to my state.
 
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@Artful Dodger What's your loDgic Lodger?

The fourth Fibonacci extension is around $1090. When a stock has incredible momentum, it's run will exhaust at this fourth extension.

It's plain to see that the first and second extensions are the point at which the stock took an intermittent plateau.
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NVDA got beautifully rejected off the 3rd fibonacci extension (~$950 purple line) as predicted. You can see how nicely it pulled back at the second extension(~$720 red line). @Artful Dodger I think your prediction is just about spot-on if this has legs to the 4th extension, though I understand your reasoning is based on market cap comparison to AAPL and not silly TA.
Screenshot_20240310_121556_Chrome.jpg
 
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Forget robotaxis for now. The nanosecond that its legal to use FSD while drunk here, trust me that sales and subscriptions will go nuts. And even forgetting that, the amount of sales to people who drive long distance for work will be massive.

Seriously doubt it will ever be legal to be in the driver seat while drunk.

Tesla is not breaking out of its $300 ceiling as long as it’s an auto story. Improving auto margins and energy growth will get it back into the high 200s but anything over $300 is going to require significant movement on the FSD/AI front. Tesla looks very binary to me. By 2030 it will be the biggest auto company in the world or the biggest AI company. $800B market cap or $4T+
 
I am researching what my insurance would cost me but that screenshot was from an article listing the most expensive cars to insure.

So the context of my situation is correct, the context of the screenshot is not specific to me.
For our '21 Model Y, full coverage insurance through Allstate here in AZ is $1428 a year. Seems pretty reasonable to me...

Appears that insurance rates vary greatly from state to state, and person to person.
 
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No Tesla insurance in my state yet so insurance prices are higher here. Safety Scores in the app won't help me.

I'm not done doing comparisons with all the insurance companies I'll be checking but here is a 1 company comparison with my actual household information involved:

This is 6 months coverage (double the cost if you want to see a yearly figure)

Liberty $636 (2015 Leaf + 2020 Leaf. $1,000 deductible, $250k/500k)
Liberty $927 (2015 leaf + 2020 Tesla Model 3, $1,000 deductible, $250k/500k)

with the $4,000 used car credit in play I can

Buy a used 2020 Leaf for about $13k - 4k, and end up spending about 10K
Buy a used 2020 Model 3 for about $22k (I haven't confirmed I can get the 4k tax break on it), but lets assume I get it for $18k.

Then it looks like $600+ a year extra cost for insurance on the Model 3 vs the Leaf.

Yes the Model 3 is clearly the better car, but at roughly twice the up front cost and adding higher insurance costs, I might have to skip it this go round and get a Tesla later in the year when either used car prices come down or TSLA goes up.
Ahhhhhh, I see. Well I hope Tennessee joins the ranks someday re: Tesla Insurance!

Your cost comparison totally makes sense.
 
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I know people are triggered by any comment on "demand issues" as it brings up memories of historically inaccurate claims, so fine let's ignore that wording. It's not really needed anyway in valuation.

Valuation is about how much money I expect the auto business to generate in the coming years. The graph I presented is an indicator that there will continue to be compressed margins in the near future. Some of the arguments why actually support that perhaps margins will not rebound as strongly as some would hope in the coming years.

Currently Tesla's operating margin is 8%. If there isn't actully any "demand issues" that could then rebound the other way, really the only boost to automotive operating margin is likely interest rate induced, which could add another % or 2% at most. Let's say Tesla can return to achieve 10% operating margin on auto.

On 5 million cars annually at ASP of $32,500, Tesla will generate 16.25 billion in net income. At a PE ratio of 50 (very generous) that would value the company at 825 billion at that time (not discounting back to present day). Likely PE ratio applied to automotive at that time will be less because the growth phase will be slowing down. At a PE ratio of 40, that would value the company at 660 billion.

Current market cap is 550 billion. So the market is valuing a lot of future automotive profit growth already into the valuation of the company.

So, I don't see the market revaluing the company much higher on automotive unless something fundamentally changes about future expectations of operating margin. If there isn't any demand issue, then that leaves less room for there to be any improvement due to demand improvement.

The next-gen vehicle will certainly lower COGs along with ASPs, but do we expect it to really have the highest margins out of the lineup? Unlikely.

So again, my read is the automotive growth is already mostly built into the company valuation.

The only things that can remodel the company signficantly higher are robotaxis and optimus. Those revaluations aren't coming for years.

All the little things, insurance, charging revenue, etc...those are nice but are peanuts. The largest of the them (Energy), could add 100 billion to value at most, the rest are even smaller. These are nice things that will help Tesla sustain a valuation much higher than other auto companies, but they are only adding 10-20% upside from here.

Expect the stock to oscillate until some of its AI becomes a real product.
In my humble opinion, the likely GAAP margins can and will fluctuate with numerous extraneous variables (e.g. exchange rates for sales , production, employment) from an operating cash flow basis but not at all from a GAAP basis. For TSLA moire than many others there is variability because they do not directly hedge FX. Part fo that GAAP influence is often negative even when from a cash flow perspective the same effects can be positive. This quickly becomes both arcane, controversial and without enough direct data to resolve the conflicts.

Because of all that I depend far more on Free Cash Flow than I do on P&L. Almost by definition that minimizes volatility, which is the primary source for market maker profits. Consequently it is unsurprising that market makers and securities analysts rarely stray far from the most volatile measures they can find.
Those have a huge profit year right now as Tesla chose to concentrate on efficiency improvements and large capex for new products and new plants.

So long as people can concentrate on GAAP P&L we can be 'happily' assured that the actual FUD looks just like serious and genuine poor financial results. With Germany issues, including sabotage as well as expansion, China issues, primarily expansion and product development, Austin, Sparks, Buffalo, Monterrey, even Lathrop and so on, GAAP is quite likely to be negatively influenced this year while unit volume will not return to high growth until late next year, probably.

All that, and I watch Free Cash Flow. If it can stay positive with all that plus the pricing, supply interruptions and factory stoppage, especially Germany, we will now that Tesla maintains an impressive financial and logistics capacity with all those imply.

Nobody has thus far had too much direct evidence on that metric, just on GAAP P&L and/or auto sales trends.