Tesla's Battery lifespan

[Potential EV]

Hello Everyone,

I have a couple of questions regarding the battery lifetime+degradation:

1. How long will the Tesla's batteries last? is it 8 like the warranty or maybe 10 or 15?! can we even know for sure?

2. I live in a fairy convient area for EV's, it is rarely raining\snowing and temps are mostly at the 15~25 C(59F~78F) zone which I heard is really good for EV's(bad performance on cold weather and range is reduced due to snow\rain)
however at some days especially in the summer the temps are really hot some weeks around 35C or even 40C!
(95F and 104F)
is it any good to purchase an EV let alone a very expensive EV(Tesla model S) in such warm conditions due to Degradation?

Thank you for your time!

 

[jelloslug]

The only EV to have any significant degradation problem is the '11-'12 Nissan Leaf.

 

[Potential EV]

Because of the active cooling system? is it that good that even in 40C+ it can keep the battery's temps in check?

and do you have any clue about the battery lifetime?

thx!

 

[jbcarioca]

Nobody knows yet, but:
One Tesla S that drove 200,000 miles still had 94% battery capacity left:
Tesloop Ran Model S 200,000 Miles — What Did They Learn?
It seems that the Tesla packs typically last longer than anybody will expect. There have been packs replaced under warranty, but I have never heard of as much as 10% capacity lost.

That is not the same as capacity reporting on the dashboard. The algorithms for battery capacity are complex and period adjustments happen. For those who are really anal, there are specific procedures described if anybody wants to reset the calibrations.

 

[Potential EV]

Nobody knows yet, but:
One Tesla S that drove 200,000 miles still had 94% battery capacity left:
Tesloop Ran Model S 200,000 Miles — What Did They Learn?
It seems that the Tesla packs typically last longer than anybody will expect. There have been packs replaced under warranty, but I have never heard of as much as 10% capacity lost.

That is not the same as capacity reporting on the dashboard. The algorithms for battery capacity are complex and period adjustments happen. For those who are really anal, there are specific procedures described if anybody wants to reset the calibrations.

94% after 200,000 miles?! that's incredible!

and do you have any clue about how the car performs in warm conditions? will the degradation be severe?

 

[tga]

94% after 200,000 miles?! that's incredible!

and do you have any clue about how the car performs in warm conditions? will the degradation be severe?

The Tesloop car that saw 200,000 miles was driving from Los Angeles to Las Vegas, a route where 40C is not uncommon.

There are lots of posters here in the desert southwest US. If you search you find lots of discussion. Long story short, don't worry about it.

 

[Potential EV]

The Tesloop car that saw 200,000 miles was driving from Los Angeles to Las Vegas, a route where 40C is not uncommon.

There are lots of posters here in the desert southwest US. If you search you find lots of discussion. Long story short, don't worry about it.

I see.
do you have any idea how other EV's fair in that regard?
thank you

 

[Potential EV]

so basically the batteries lifespan is unknown..... kinda scary....

 

[wdolson]

There is a thread here on the forum somewhere with people submitting data for their battery degradation. One person saw about a 20% decline, but out of a few hundred people contributing that was the outlier. The average was around 4-6% at 50,000 miles (about 100,000 Km).

Tesla's battery management system is outstanding. They go to great lengths to keep the batteries withing the best temp ranges and if you follow their instructions and only charge to 100% rarely (Li-ion batteries are OK at 100% if you use them right away after charging, so charging to 100% while loading the car to leave on a trip and then driving off within an hour of topping up is fine, charging it to 100% and leaving it sit over the weekend is not). I've had my car 6 months and I've had 0% degradation.

If you follow Tesla's instructions, you can probably expect 10 years minimum, quite possibly around 20 years. Few people are going to keep the car that long. I kept my last ICE for 24 years and it had range degradation too. In its case the gas tank got some sludge in the bottom and it effectively got smaller. The gas mileage also went down a little bit.

Battery life is one of those things people tend to worry about when they are shopping for an EV, but it really isn't something owners think about much.

 

[dhrivnak]

My 2008 Roadster is now 8 years and down 9%. Range charge now at 220 down from 240. Not too bad.

 

[jbcarioca]

so basically the batteries lifespan is unknown..... kinda scary....

Not scary. The life is known to be at least the distances commonly accepted for life in most ICE i.e. >200,000 miles. It is the time that is unknown. We can be confident that it is likely to be >eight years because the old tech Roadsters are still running strong after that time. There is not yet data for older packs than that because they did not exist. Still, real-world-experience makes a high level of confidence that the Tesla packs will be good for a long time, whatever that might be. At the very least "a long time' will be longer than all but a very few owners will have long since disposed of their cars. Personally, I suspect that when capacity degradation of eight year old packs and 200,000 mile packs seems typically stable around 94% or so, we'll go 20 years or so.

The old style generic li-ions used to be stable for a few hundred cycles, then 'drop of a cliff'. We are not seeing that with Tesla packs, nor is such common even with air-cooled packs such as Nissan Leaf.

So, in this case 'unknown' is a good thing. We need a pattern of eventual failures in order to reliably estimate expected life and we do not yet have that. Excellent news!

 

[Potential EV]

There is a thread here on the forum somewhere with people submitting data for their battery degradation. One person saw about a 20% decline, but out of a few hundred people contributing that was the outlier. The average was around 4-6% at 50,000 miles (about 100,000 Km).

Tesla's battery management system is outstanding. They go to great lengths to keep the batteries withing the best temp ranges and if you follow their instructions and only charge to 100% rarely (Li-ion batteries are OK at 100% if you use them right away after charging, so charging to 100% while loading the car to leave on a trip and then driving off within an hour of topping up is fine, charging it to 100% and leaving it sit over the weekend is not). I've had my car 6 months and I've had 0% degradation.

If you follow Tesla's instructions, you can probably expect 10 years minimum, quite possibly around 20 years. Few people are going to keep the car that long. I kept my last ICE for 24 years and it had range degradation too. In its case the gas tank got some sludge in the bottom and it effectively got smaller. The gas mileage also went down a little bit.

Battery life is one of those things people tend to worry about when they are shopping for an EV, but it really isn't something owners think about much.

I see, thank you for the information!

 

[Potential EV]

My 2008 Roadster is now 8 years and down 9%. Range charge now at 220 down from 240. Not too bad.

thanks and if I may ask, how many miles did you drive with it?

 

[electracity]

Because of the active cooling system? is it that good that even in 40C+ it can keep the battery's temps in check?

and do you have any clue about the battery lifetime?

thx!

The long expected battery life is mostly because of the large battery. As long as the average daily mileage is less than half the vehicles rated range the battery will last most of the life of the whole car. Very high mileage Leafs burn up the battery in a couple of years. The economics of this use is poor.

To put it simply, don't buy an EV for a long commute where plugging in a work five days a week is necessary to comfortably make the round trip.

 

[Potential EV]

The long expected battery life is mostly because of the large battery. As long as the average daily mileage is less than half the vehicles rated range the battery will last most of the life of the whole car. Very high mileage Leafs burn up the battery in a couple of years. The economics of this use is poor.

To put it simply, don't buy an EV for a long commute where plugging in a work five days a week is necessary to comfortably make the round trip.

My commute is rather short(40-60 kilometers a day) however charging everyday at home seems like a good idea.
i'll charge to around 75% which is very good for the battery's health and have each day extra enegry for emergencies and etc

(like I said its sunny almost all the time here, rain or snow are rare and temps are good so i think i'll get real close to tesla range claims)

 

[electracity]

My commute is rather short(40-60 kilometers a day) however charging everyday at home seems like a good idea.
i'll charge to around 75% which is very good for the battery's health and have each day extra enegry for emergencies and etc

Nothing wrong with always plugging in at work and home. The problem arises with fully cycling the battery twice per day. Musk has said that Tesla's average the equivalent of one battery cycle per week. This battery use isn't due to low average miles on Tesla vehicles, but the large battery.

I doubt it is necessary to "baby" a Tesla by charging less than 90%. Just 1) Buy a car where the range is at least 2X the average daily use. (3x would be better). 2) Plug the car in almost every day. Maybe point three would be to not do extended high speed driving in very hot weather.

 

[dhrivnak]

thanks and if I may ask, how many miles did you drive with it?

I have 42,000 miles so not a huge number but not a garage queen either

 

[jbcarioca]

The long expected battery life is mostly because of the large battery. As long as the average daily mileage is less than half the vehicles rated range the battery will last most of the life of the whole car. Very high mileage Leafs burn up the battery in a couple of years. The economics of this use is poor.

To put it simply, don't buy an EV for a long commute where plugging in a work five days a week is necessary to comfortably make the round trip.

That is actually not correct in the case of Tesla, at least. Tesloop reached 200,000 miles in their first S in about a year, running from LA to LAS and back every day, charging to 100% and heavy discharge every day. They had 94% left at 200,000 miles.
Tesloop Ran Model S 200,000 Miles — What Did They Learn?
As for Nissan Leaf, thermal management has been a far greater issue than SOC, although it is true that deep discharge and overcharge are stressful for li-ion.
Specific chemistry, geometry, production quality control, and many other factors contribute to life expectancy.

Oversimplification can lead to some serious errors. Just using half the usable capacity (I guess that is what you really meant rather than 'rated range' which is a theoretical calculation.) is conservative enough, so long as one adds: not less than 20% SOC nor more than 90% SOC to the rules of thumb. A good many high mileage Leaf's have not had battery longevity issues. They need, however, to be in moderate weather conditions because the absence of active thermal management makes the Leaf a poor hot weather choice. The Leaf long ago had it's equivalent of Tesloop when a UK taxi went 100,000 miles with 99% capacity left.
“Wizzy” The Nissan LEAF Taxi Surpasses 100,000 Miles
Clearly that case did have moderate weather.

Those two cases and much more documented evidence suggests your recommendation
"...don't buy an EV for a long commute where plugging in a work five days a week is necessary..." is bad advice. That is close to ideal for a happy EV long life as numerous taxis show for several brands.

 

[jbcarioca]

My commute is rather short(40-60 kilometers a day) however charging everyday at home seems like a good idea.
i'll charge to around 75% which is very good for the battery's health and have each day extra enegry for emergencies and etc

(like I said its sunny almost all the time here, rain or snow are rare and temps are good so i think i'll get real close to tesla range claims)

Most of Spain seems ideal for EV living, especially for a tesla which has excellent battery management. Unless you are driving in mountainous areas the 'rated range' works well. Remember, that tesla rated range calculations tend to be based on about 100 kph, so if you're doing the 110 kph limit and not much more you'll find your results quite predictable.
If you decide to go to Germany on the Autobahn areas still without speed limits you will find yourself recharging very frequently. On the other hand Tesla cars handle high speed very, very well.

 

[electracity]

That is actually not correct in the case of Tesla, at least. Tesloop reached 200,000 miles in their first S in about a year, running from LA to LAS and back every day, charging to 100% and heavy discharge every day. They had 94% left at 200,000 miles.
Tesloop Ran Model S 200,000 Miles — What Did They Learn?
As for Nissan Leaf, thermal management has been a far greater issue than SOC, although it is true that deep discharge and overcharge are stressful for li-ion.
Specific chemistry, geometry, production quality control, and many other factors contribute to life expectancy.

Oversimplification can lead to some serious errors. Just using half the usable capacity (I guess that is what you really meant rather than 'rated range' which is a theoretical calculation.) is conservative enough, so long as one adds: not less than 20% SOC nor more than 90% SOC to the rules of thumb. A good many high mileage Leaf's have not had battery longevity issues. They need, however, to be in moderate weather conditions because the absence of active thermal management makes the Leaf a poor hot weather choice. The Leaf long ago had it's equivalent of Tesloop when a UK taxi went 100,000 miles with 99% capacity left.
“Wizzy” The Nissan LEAF Taxi Surpasses 100,000 Miles
Clearly that case did have moderate weather.

Those two cases and much more documented evidence suggests your recommendation
"...don't buy an EV for a long commute where plugging in a work five days a week is necessary..." is bad advice. That is close to ideal for a happy EV long life as numerous taxis show for several brands.

Did you actually read the article? That mileage was done in 18 months. Did you listen to what Musk has said about cycling batteries?