The Neuralink Master Thread

[SW2Fiddler]

Those sense organs evolved to detect specific types of environmental inputs, but not the information used for higher cognitive thought processing as done by humans. Dogs navigate their world by smell, humans use their sense of smell to a much more limited degree.

I don't see how those sense organs would be useful as bandwidth conduits between the human neocortex and the information and processing capabilities of a general AI system. Please keep in mind that, for example, the nerves connecting the nose to the brain are relatively few in number. Neuralink is trying to develop an direct interface between a general AI and the neocortex. Very different than using human sensory nerves to the neocortex.

I don't disagree at all. Just musing on an example of the existing concept-transferral state of the art; we'll need a whole bunch of new terminology invented just to discuss this brave new field.

 

[Intl Professor]

As the WaitButWhy posting said, that's going to happen anyway, so the idea is to position us in the best possible position to be able to handle it when it does happen.

I keep telling everyone that if you want to go into anything having to do with computer programming and/or artificial intelligence, the best shortcut to a great understanding of those things at least in the near past was to start with a full understanding of biology, including all the wonderful functions of the body, disease, etc., because most of the concepts in programming today have the same types of complex thoughts and learning associated with them. Even the US Navy (sp?) knew this decades ago with their DARPA proposals, and I was glad to see at least someone knew it back then when they came out with those proposals (I was like "finally!"). Anyway, the reason I mention any of this is: a lot of the same concepts in fighting disease in biology also exist in such a conglomerated human brain network. You have to have a lot of pieces that redundantly handle disease. If you instead take the approach that you don't like disease and therefore do not want to have the pieces that might get diseased, such as a human body, then what you end up with is -- you don't exist. I jumped from a smaller conclusion to a larger conclusion. Let me try to break it down to my initial attempt to describe it. If you are afraid to integrate the parts of the human body because that allows more diseases to infect more of the body (such as through the blood stream communicating the infections), then you are also afraid to have the systems that help fight those diseases throughout the body (such as through the blood stream communicating the battles). If you are afraid that together a total system can be attacked with leveraged consequences, then what happens when a non-system is attacked one bit at a time incrementally and none of the individuals have control over the infections of their isolated pieces? Eventually, all members of the society die. For instance, look at a conglomerated society such as USA+Europe fighting diseases with such things as vaccines and antibiotics, vs. societies that don't have that because they stay independent, and sometimes get some portion of wiped out (even up to including fully wiped out).

I'm not saying it is a guarantee to be better, but I am saying that it has more potential to be better. And, this is on a huge scale, so more equals much much more.

I do find it interesting that I hate the problems of collectivism and communism, and yet, I am fully in support of some portions of the systems taking advantage of conglomerated progress; this is fully explained in this paragraph and the next by individualized subsystems. As in most things, balance is what we need. If you take the concepts I describe in the next paragraph, bringing structure (such as (quasi-hierarchical or other structured) sets each with self-protections) into the systems is the balancing force. I think being able to have more sooner understanding of this hive is better by being in it. Otherwise, as Elon said, being a pet is a good outcome, and I'd rather, as Elon said, be part of the outcome's future beyond just being a pet.

Much as nations have as their body's skin borders, humans have as their body's skin skin. Oh, I just took an analogy that I applied to a nation from the human body and re-applied it back on the body. That's slightly funny. But my point is that this can be extended. Cells have cell walls. It goes down further and up further. Earth has earth walls (well, space). Elements have strange forces that hold them in sort of limited ways. You can go on and on, like states, counties, mountains, continents, organs, vessels, pipes, neurons, etc. Nothing is completely impervious, yet, that resistance element allows individuality, within greater conglomerated systems, so what happens is you get a bunch of individuals that are not completely violated and have diverse reactions to the system as a whole, and the system can be made better from the effect of uncorrupted (or at least not too sick) individuals and the individuals that can be made better by the uncorrupted (or at least not too sick) system (or even subsystems). Thus we live. (Probably.)

In praise of TMC I know I am often florid, flowery to the extent of petal to the metal, but Ulmo you are a frilling genius. My thanks to you and, of course, your parents. I had to read this slowly several times and will again. I've often thought the problem of government is the conflict between freedom and order. You've just given it a biological twist, the congregation of collective versus the individual! Finally, shame on you for arguing by analogy.

 

[winfield100]

As an aside, you might want to read a discussion of the "Culture" from the wiki post discussing Iain M Banks treatments of it.
There are vague references to neurallink, so to speak roughly. The series of ~10 books gives a tantalizing glimpse into Musk's mind/thought process (be aware, it's space opera)
Culture series - Wikipedia

 

[wdolson]

As an aside, you might want to read a discussion of the "Culture" from the wiki post discussing Iain M Banks treatments of it.
There are vague references to neurallink, so to speak roughly. The series of ~10 books gives a tantalizing glimpse into Musk's mind/thought process (be aware, it's space opera)
Culture series - Wikipedia

Here is where the idea goes off the rails for me:
"Since the majority of its biological population can have virtually anything they want without the need to work, there is little need for laws or enforcement, and the culture is described by Banks as space socialism."

There is a mistaken assumption that if you eliminate want, you will eliminate greed. That may be true for a large percentage of the human race, but that isn't true for all. Look at how the super rich are bifurcated.

Some are of the attitude that once you have enough to meet all your wants and needs, just having more money is pointless. Many of these people become philanthropists who give away much of their fortune, or find some way to use much of their fortune for the common good. A lot of the tech billionaires are this way, and there are a few others like Warren Buffet. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are giving away their fortunes while Elon Musk keeps plowing his back into projects he hopes will improve humanity.

Then there are the other super rich who count their money to keep score. Some use it to see how much influence they can buy like the Koch family or Sheldon Adelson. Others flash their wealth around so the world sees them as rich like our current president. A lot of people who made big money in the financial sector essentially screwing other people out of their money are mostly in this crowd too.

It's been said that some of the most cut throat, back stabbing, game playing happens in college faculties where the rewards are relatively small.

If the entire population was effectively super rich, some percentage of the population would continue to do something to try and be "better" than their neighbor. If money was not an issue, they would fight over something else.

People like Elon Musk have a lot of trouble grokking people like the Koch brothers or Donald Trump. They are alien creatures and their motives are often ignored by those who take a more utopian view of the future. Alan Greenspan ignored the warnings about what could happen to the world economy if the people running the derivative markets were not regulated because he couldn't wrap his head around the possibility that those people would run the world's economy into a ditch for their own gains.

If you want a snapshot of what human culture would look like if everyone had all their needs and wants met, look at how the super rich behave. One Donald Trump or Koch brother unchecked could undo all the good a thousand Elon Musks do.

Unfortunately I think the Culture series is as much fantasy as Lord of the Rings. Trying to create that society without realizing what human nature really is will likely result in disaster.

 

[winfield100]

Here is where the idea goes off the rails for me:
"Since the majority of its biological population can have virtually anything they want without the need to work, there is little need for laws or enforcement, and the culture is described by Banks as space socialism."

There is a mistaken assumption that if you eliminate want, you will eliminate greed. That may be true for a large percentage of the human race, but that isn't true for all. Look at how the super rich are bifurcated.

Some are of the attitude that once you have enough to meet all your wants and needs, just having more money is pointless. Many of these people become philanthropists who give away much of their fortune, or find some way to use much of their fortune for the common good. A lot of the tech billionaires are this way, and there are a few others like Warren Buffet. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are giving away their fortunes while Elon Musk keeps plowing his back into projects he hopes will improve humanity.

Then there are the other super rich who count their money to keep score. Some use it to see how much influence they can buy like the Koch family or Sheldon Adelson. Others flash their wealth around so the world sees them as rich like our current president. A lot of people who made big money in the financial sector essentially screwing other people out of their money are mostly in this crowd too.

It's been said that some of the most cut throat, back stabbing, game playing happens in college faculties where the rewards are relatively small.

If the entire population was effectively super rich, some percentage of the population would continue to do something to try and be "better" than their neighbor. If money was not an issue, they would fight over something else.

People like Elon Musk have a lot of trouble grokking people like the Koch brothers or Donald Trump. They are alien creatures and their motives are often ignored by those who take a more utopian view of the future. Alan Greenspan ignored the warnings about what could happen to the world economy if the people running the derivative markets were not regulated because he couldn't wrap his head around the possibility that those people would run the world's economy into a ditch for their own gains.

If you want a snapshot of what human culture would look like if everyone had all their needs and wants met, look at how the super rich behave. One Donald Trump or Koch brother unchecked could undo all the good a thousand Elon Musks do.

Unfortunately I think the Culture series is as much fantasy as Lord of the Rings. Trying to create that society without realizing what human nature really is will likely result in disaster.

read it a bit more. its in the far future, the war kill ~981 billion folks/sentients, 1 dyson sphere, 6 stars, etc, and encompasses 0.02% of galaxy. i'm not disagreeing, i'm hoping we don't become a "dead world" and I could upload for a slitely longer (logrythmic scale) to experience life
it's space opera, of the "thud and blunder" variety, but well written.

 

[ecarfan]

There is a mistaken assumption that if you eliminate want, you will eliminate greed. That may be true for a large percentage of the human race, but that isn't true for all. Look at how the super rich are bifurcated

We are going to get this thread off track into a discussion of the Culture series (and it can be a fun discussion) so I suggest that the moderator split these posts into their own thread in Off Topic.

I've read several of the Culture series books. I do not think it is a "mistaken assumption" to envision a society set thousands of years in the future that operates on very different principles than what we experience today. If physical objects can be created for almost zero cost by manipulating matter at the atomic level, the meaning of what things are "desirable" is radically altered. Diamonds, gold, intricate construction, has no more value than silica and a plain piece of paper. Add to that superintelligent AI providing information and services at no cost, and humans are left to pursue their own personal interests and experiences that stimulate them. There is no point to aggregating things that you personally "own" or trying to control other people so that you can have more resources than they do. Removing resource limits would fundamentally change the way humans behave. It would be a gradual process of course but over thousands of years human evolution would take a different course. And part of that course would be interfacing with computer intelligences. I think that would be inevitable, unless a general AI eliminated humans first; inadvertently or maliciously.

 

[winfield100]

We are going to get this thread off track into a discussion of the Culture series (and it can be a fun discussion) so I suggest that the moderator split these posts into their own thread in Off Topic.

I've read several of the Culture series books. I do not think it is a "mistaken assumption" to envision a society set thousands of years in the future that operates on very different principles than what we experience today. If physical objects can be created for almost zero cost by manipulating matter at the atomic level, the meaning of what things are "desirable" is radically altered. Diamonds, gold, intricate construction, has no more value than silica and a plain piece of paper. Add to that superintelligent AI providing information and services at no cost, and humans are left to pursue their own personal interests and experiences that stimulate them. There is no point to aggregating things that you personally "own" or trying to control other people so that you can have more resources than they do. Removing resource limits would fundamentally change the way humans behave. It would be a gradual process of course but over thousands of years human evolution would take a different course. And part of that course would be interfacing with computer intelligences. I think that would be inevitable, unless a general AI eliminated humans first; inadvertently or maliciously.

I mention the Culture series (10 books) to give a glimpse into Musk's thought processes for the neural link since it seems to be his inspiration, only reason
As a working example, chapter 7 of "Consider Phlebas" gives an example how it works
Conciousness('s) (singular/plural) that is/are not completely in your head, but partialy or fully there and able to rapidly change, with others inserting thoughts and emotions, maybe overlapping somewhat.
A neural link would be a different type of "telepathy" as my brain researcher friend writes "Yup, a bunch of the big boys are getting into BMI, Cheers, R"
(not, you are nutz, that's science fiction, but more, "yeah, itz happening")

 

[mspohr]

Neurotechnology, Elon Musk and the goal of human enhancement

Neurotechnology, Elon Musk and the goal of human enhancement

Recent talk about Neuralink from Elon

 

[AudubonB]

Re-activating this thread in anticipation of this evening’s presentation. Here is Neuralink’s YouTubepage for the livestream:

 

[AudubonB]

....and, 86 minutes after the presentation’s scheduled start, I do believe Mr Musk has set an unwanted new record in rudeness to an interested audience.

 

[wdolson]

....and, 86 minutes after the presentation’s scheduled start, I do believe Mr Musk has set an unwanted new record in rudeness to an interested audience.

It's getting pretty late for the east coast folks.

 

[Fact Checking]

OT: Neuralink livestream

TLDW:

• Neuralink has developed a 3,072-channel low power brain implant technology to interface with the human brain in a very precise, micron-accurate fashion, which consists of:
  • Very thin biocompatible threads of 32 channels (flexible electrodes) each, thinner than the human hair, 96 threads for the full implant. Each thread can connect to any specific area of the brain with high accuracy.
  • A biocompatible and permanently embeddable chip of 20mmx20mx2mm that bundles the 96 threads and processes the signals bidirectionally at the full bandwidth the brain can do, and converts the signals into USB-C packets and does low power radio communications (planned) with a nearby external device (which looks like a hearing aid) - their animal (rat) prototype uses a physical cable.
  • An autonomous surgical robot that under surgeon control can place the threads with micron accuracy at a rate of 6/minute.
• They showed a photo of a rat with a functioning implant, and they showed actual decoded per neuron brain signals - which they claim is an order of magnitude advance over prior technologies.
• They plan starting human trials late next year, with volunteer quadriplegic (all four limbs paralized) patients, to cure their illness/injury: the implant could play the role of a permanent full bandwidth neural bridge.
• They also plan to cure other brain diseases/disorders.
• The long term goal is to use the Neuralink brain implants to high bandwidth control any device and potentially offer visual feedback as well.
• Neuralink has ~90 employees and they have $150m+ of funding.
• Here's their publication: Neuralink White Paper

Rather exciting developments, and Elon isn't Patient #1, which should be the main takeaway to Tesla investors.

Edit: fixed some of the numbers, added link.

 

[Antares Nebula]

TLDW:

• Neuralink has developed a 3,072-channel low power brain implant technology to interface with the human brain in a very precise, micron-accurate fashion, which consists of:
  • Very thin biocompatible threads of 32 channels (flexible electrodes) each, thinner than the human hair, 96 threads for the full implant. Each thread can connect to any specific area of the brain with high accuracy.
  • A biocompatible and permanently embeddable chip of 20mmx20mx2mm that bundles the 32 threads and processes the signals bidirectionally at full bandwidth the brain can do, and converts the signals into USB-C packets and does low power radio communications with a nearby external device (which looks like a hearing aid).
  • An autonomous surgical robot that under surgeon control can place the threads with micron accuracy at a rate of 6/minute.
• They showed a photo of a rat with a functioning implant, and they showed actual decoded per neuron brain signals - which they claim is an order of magnitude advance over prior technologies.
• They plan starting human trials late next year, with volunteer quadriplegic (all four limbs paralized) patients, to cure their illness/injury: the implant could play the role of a permanent full bandwidth neural bridge.
• They also plan to cure other brain diseases.
• The long term goal is to use the Neuralink brain implants to high bandwidth control any device and potentially offer visual feedback as well.
• Neuralink has ~90 employees and they have $150m+ of funding.
• Here's their publication: Neuralink White Paper

Rather exciting developments, and Elon isn't Patient #1, which should be the main takeaway to Tesla investors.

Ha, ha... say it like it is: the long term goal is borg: the merging of man and machine, lest we become inferior to our AI overlords.

“Ultimately” he wants “to achieve a symbiosis with artificial intelligence.” And that even in a “benign scenario,” humans would be “left behind.” Hence, he wants to create technology that allows a “merging with AI.”

Elon Musk unveils Neuralink’s plans for brain-reading ‘threads’ and a robot to insert them

 

[Fact Checking]

Ha, ha... say it like it is: the long term goal is borg: the merging of man and machine, lest we become inferior to our AI overlords.

“Ultimately” he wants “to achieve a symbiosis with artificial intelligence.” And that even in a “benign scenario,” humans would be “left behind.” Hence, he wants to create technology that allows a “merging with AI.”

Elon Musk unveils Neuralink’s plans for brain-reading ‘threads’ and a robot to insert them

I missed this:

During a Q&A at the end of the presentation, Musk revealed results that the rest of the team hadn’t realized he would: “A monkey has been able to control a computer with its brain.”​

That's huge!

 

[ClimateOptimst]

New MotorTend interview with Elon and Franz:

Interview: Elon Musk Reflects on Significance of Tesla Model S - MotorTrend​

Quotes relevant to TSLA:

"EM: Well, I think we've got to scale up our production, get to making millions of cars per year. And keep improving the price of the car, offering version of the car that cost less so that people can afford them while still having a car that people love and is great in every way. That's sort of our challenge overall. But I feel like we're on a good path to that.

We've got a really exciting product lineup, just when we're talking about Tesla specifically, and we can talk more about the future, but we've got the Tesla Semi, the new Roadster, later this year hopefully we'll be unveiling the Tesla pickup truck, and Model Y will be going into production.

I think in general, though, from a societal benefits standpoint, we need to just improve the cost of an electric powertrain—the battery pack and powertrain overall—to make the car more affordable, and we need self-autonomy. Those are the two things at a very high level that matter the most. But doing it along the way with heart and soul."​

Note the ambiguity of the Model Y timing:

"... later this year hopefully we'll be unveiling the Tesla pickup truck, and Model Y will be going into production."​

While I don't think Elon intended this to mean that Model Y will be going into production later this year, that's certainly a way to read it. Can anyone watch the video to clarify how he meant the timing?

in the 3 minute video, that sentence was edited to end after he mentioned the pickup truck. No mention of Model Y was given...

 

[Antares Nebula]

Joking aside, I believe that Neuralink, or something similar, is inevitable. Consider the progression of computing tech over the decades:

large rooms of computers >> mainframes >> PCs >> laptops >> smartphone/tablets >> wearables (watches, visors, glasses)

Not just miniaturization, but also personalization. Getting ever closer to the body on an ever constant basis. The next logical step after wearables is direct implants, finally crossing the boundary of skin. With(in) the body and at all times. It is the natural progression of computing tech.

Very interesting in the context of the extended mind and body ideas in cognitive science and philosophy, where many thinkers argue that humans are already extended with technology and that physical implantation is a mere formality. For example, one's diary or iPhone maybe considered (both cognitively and legally) as part of one's mind, and therefore have the right to "remain silent" in legal/criminal situations. In particular, see this seminal paper by Andy Clark (I wonder if Musk is aware of his work -- it was cited in the above Verge article):

"The Extended Mind" by Andy Clark and David Chalmers
The Extended Mind - Wikipedia

 

[Antares Nebula]

Interestingly, in the above context, if the next computing paradigm (after wearables) is some kind of cybernetic implant, then Apple, Microsoft, Google, and other computer companies will have to eventually shift to this tech. So beyond the automotive space with smartcars, another of Musk's companies (Neuralink) is on a collision course with the incumbent tech giants (though way down the road).

People are already stoking the flames about an Apple and Tesla partnership/merger regarding a future smartcar platform. But now Apple may have another reason to buy Tesla: to get Musk and Neuralink as well. But I'm not advocating this, only pointing out the competitive landscape. Tesla may end up dominating the smartcar industry, while Neuralink dominates a (distant future) personal computing industry. Or, alternatively, one of the tech incumbents buys both companies and instills Musk as CEO (just like Apple bought Next and Steve Jobs reclaimed the helm).

Anyway, it's all a bit hypothetical and way down the road.

 

[Artful Dodger]

I'm trying to read something into the Neuralink intro and what's going to happen with Q2, but I got nothin'.

“It will be controlled through an iPhone app,”​

Can you run with that?

Cheers!

 

[Tslynk67]

Joking aside, I believe that Neuralink, or something similar, is inevitable. Consider the progression of computing tech over the decades:

large rooms of computers >> mainframes >> PCs >> laptops >> smartphone/tablets >> wearables (watches, visors, glasses)

Not just miniaturization, but also personalization. Getting ever closer to the body on an ever constant basis. The next logical step after wearables is direct implants, finally crossing the boundary of skin. With(in) the body and at all times. It is the natural progression of computing tech.

Very interesting in the context of the extended mind and body ideas in cognitive science and philosophy, where many thinkers argue that humans are already extended with technology and that physical implantation is a mere formality. For example, one's diary or iPhone maybe considered (both cognitively and legally) as part of one's mind, and therefore have the right to "remain silent" in legal/criminal situations. In particular, see this seminal paper by Andy Clark (I wonder if Musk is aware of his work -- it was cited in the above Verge article):

"The Extended Mind" by Andy Clark and David Chalmers
The Extended Mind - Wikipedia

For those that haven't read Iain M Banks' Culture books (why not you morons??!!), which are a massive influence on Elon and his aspirations...

Neural lace

 

[ruralectric]

Replay - scroll 1 hour 30 minutes to the start LOL

FYI: Pretty sure the delay was due to the coincident timing of the Starhopper static fire and unfortunately the post-static fire, uh, fire. Extent of damage to Starhopper not yet clear.

Starhopper fires up for an eventful Static Fire test – NASASpaceFlight.com