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Moderator comment - this round was started in Don't hesitate to report issues to Tesla

Very interesting graph indeed.

About the vegan leather... I understand the need of this sort of stuff in regards to fur coats etc but being that cattle are bread for consumption whch we consume a fair bit.... what now happens to the hides of the dead cows... maybe a bit off topic but its food for thought o_O

food for thought indeed....More people are turning vegetarian and vegan so there's lower demand for those as well now!
Suspect they are still used to make things like sofas, shoes, belts, handbags, jackets etc.
 
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food for thought indeed....More people are turning vegetarian and vegan so there's lower demand for those as well now!
Suspect they are still used to make things like sofas, shoes, belts, handbags, jackets etc.

I would guess that a great deal of the raw material for leather, mainly cow hides from cattle slaughtered for food, or end-of-life dairy cattle, now gets thrown away or used for animal feed, most probably along with the other non-human-edible parts. Seems daft not to use a raw material that's being produced as a by-product of a major industry, but it seems that manufacturers now feel obliged to comply with the wishes of a very vocal minority who don't view human beings as omnivores (and a glance at our teeth shows clearly that we are).
 
I would guess that a great deal of the raw material for leather, mainly cow hides from cattle slaughtered for food, or end-of-life dairy cattle, now gets thrown away or used for animal feed, most probably along with the other non-human-edible parts. Seems daft not to use a raw material that's being produced as a by-product of a major industry, but it seems that manufacturers now feel obliged to comply with the wishes of a very vocal minority who don't view human beings as omnivores (and a glance at our teeth shows clearly that we are).

Tesla doing the PU 'vegan' leather is a good thing as it will reduce the demand for cow hide/skin which I'm sure you'll agree is a good thing.

RE: Teeth: our ancestors ate meat, and predominantly in the colder climates. But the glancing at your teeth thing ain't true.

dd98f830a4e5a6cf9b86f7389b2cffa8.jpg
 
Tesla doing the PU 'vegan' leather is a good thing as it will reduce the demand for cow hide/skin which I'm sure you'll agree is a good thing.

Given that masses of animal hides are produced as a by-product of the meat and dairy industry, and that neither of those industries is going to disappear anytime soon, (especially not because a tiny, very vocal, percentage of the population don't happen think humans are omnivores), then the only difference that moving away from proper leather for things like car seats will have is to stop a useful by-product being put to very good use. In the process, this will cause job losses for all those involved in the leather industry and prevent a perfectly good waste product being recycled to give years of beneficial use.
 
Given that masses of animal hides are produced as a by-product of the meat and dairy industry, and that neither of those industries is going to disappear anytime soon, (especially not because a tiny, very vocal, percentage of the population don't happen think humans are omnivores), then the only difference that moving away from proper leather for things like car seats will have is to stop a useful by-product being put to very good use. In the process, this will cause job losses for all those involved in the leather industry and prevent a perfectly good waste product being recycled to give years of beneficial use.

I fully agree with this. Leather will always be a byproduct of animals used for meat and dairy. Why create the need for fake leather which is a chemical product with known side-effects for the environment? The irony...
 
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I fully agree with this. Leather will always be a byproduct of animals used for meat and dairy. Why create the need for fake leather which is a chemical product with known side-effects for the environment? The irony...

Going off topic now but there's lots of chemicals used in making leather...it doesn't just fall off an animal.
ISTT - Chemicals Used in Leather Processing
 
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Going off topic now but there's lots of chemicals used in making leather...it doesn't just fall off an animal.
ISTT - Chemicals Used in Leather Processing

Agreed, but turning hundreds of thousands of surplus animal hides into a useful and durable product is at least providing us with something useful, rather than having to find another way to dispose of it. We're not going to stop farming animals any time soon, and (as a farmer's son) I would hope that we put every part of the carcasses of the animals we do slaughter to beneficial use, be that as food for ourselves and our pets, feedstocks for some industrial processes or leather for clothing, upholstery, etc.

As it is, only a small fraction of the hides from animals slaughtered for food are put to good use, and that strikes me as being just wrong. If we are going to breed and rear animals for food, then the very least would should do, after giving them the best life we can, is make best use of every part of their carcasses after death.

Just to be clear, I have absolutely no issue with anyone that holds a strong personal belief that killing and eating animals is wrong. My mother in law is Buddhist, so vegetarian, and we get on just fine, I respect her beliefs, she respects mine. One conundrum we have discussed is the thought experiment as to what would happen if the entire world turned vegetarian/vegan. One consequence would be that cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, turkeys etc would all become extinct. We'd also have to massively reduce our pet population, as keeping carnivores as pets wouldn't be sustainable. Some countries, like the UK, would probably become wholly dependent on imported food, as we don't have anything like enough arable land to support ~68 million people. I guess technology might come up with a solution sooner or later, but I rather think that, for now, we can only really exist as omnivores.
 
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Tesla doing the PU 'vegan' leather is a good thing as it will reduce the demand for cow hide/skin which I'm sure you'll agree is a good thing.

RE: Teeth: our ancestors ate meat, and predominantly in the colder climates. But the glancing at your teeth thing ain't true.

dd98f830a4e5a6cf9b86f7389b2cffa8.jpg


Things must of moved on a bit... When I was at school and thus far I can remember there was only three classifications (carnivore, omnivorous and herbivore. Out of which humans landed into the omnivore category. Beliefs apart, the science tells us that humans have evolved (some anyway!) and we once also had bigger fangs when we didn't have tools to do certain jobs. Now days we have knifes and forks, guns, arrows etc but traces of what we once where are still predominantly visible.
 
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Things must of moved on a bit... When I was at school and thus far I can remember there was only three classifications (carnivore, omnivorous and herbivore. Out of which humans landed into the omnivore category. Beliefs apart, the science tells us that humans have evolved (some anyway!) and we once also had bigger fangs when we didn't have tools to do certain jobs. Now days we have knifes and forks, guns, arrows etc but traces of what we once where are still predominantly visible.

Aye. We're anatomically herbivores although yes in the past we've hunted and eaten animals, especially in the northern climates. I really recommend the book Homo Brittanicus by Chris Stringer if this is of further interest.

Tesla has disrupted the personal motor vehicle market. I believe they can take this accomplishment.

Likewise, lab-grown 'clean' meat will disrupt the traditional animal agriculture industries. It is said that the internal combustion engine hasn't materially changed in over 100 years. In the same way, animal agriculture has become more industrialised but is essentially unchanged. Like the change to renewable energy, electric vehicles, smartphones etc. Disruption is coming..
 
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Things must of moved on a bit... When I was at school and thus far I can remember there was only three classifications (carnivore, omnivorous and herbivore. ......

There were also only 2 genders + abberations. Things change - omnivore, vegan, vegetarian, lacto-vegetarion, fruitarian, kangatarian, organic...
Irrespective of all the above (and i eat meat as well as veg, fruit etc) there is ample evidence that farm animals bear a portion of blame for climate change and perhaps more importantly there are elements of animal keeping that remain unethical. I have the dubious privillege of having been in abbatoirs and seen live animal exports and less well managed livestock. Live exports so some nation mired in primitive beliefs can kill it themselves is not a stress free transport.
Whatever happens to reduce unnecessary cruelty should be applauded and there is always a place for carcase residues even if it's fertilizer.
As for our ability to grow food.. There's loads of wasted land and wasted growing (some for animal feed) and a whole load of nonsense about importing stuff we could grow here if we weren't too lazy to pick it or so decadent we want it out fo season. A simple example when we lose ICE exhausts would be roadside verges with fruit trees. it's a bugbear of mine that UK imports apples, blueberries, chestnuts etc all perfectly growable and storable here. Climate was different then but the Romans believed Britain was ideal for growing grapes with some of the best produce from Northuberland. we even grow a small amount of Tea in the West Country...
 
Going off topic now but there's lots of chemicals used in making leather...it doesn't just fall off an animal.
ISTT - Chemicals Used in Leather Processing

Chemicals are everywhere and many if not most things do not exist without it and thats it way it stands at the moment. Its how these things are handled and disposed of that is most of the issue. Chemicals can neutralise chemicals. Unfortunately with corporate greed (thats also the way the world evolves) "making" people, mostly children from third world countries handle chemicals without ppe etc. is of most concern to me.... imho the fault is in the process but then again I might be living in denial... you cant make an omelet without cracking a few eggs all things considered.

We now have and are able to do things in a safer manner than it ever was years ago. Some not so perfect but all we keep doing is trying to advance and offset some of the bad byproducts that come from it and keep some sort of balance.

100 and less years ago things that we have today would be considered magic and many years before that, the work of the devil... All magic comes with a price said "someone" once said.

That said....whos round is it next :rolleyes::D
 
There's to many things for me to quote and respond to in here so, I'm going to post my thoughts and hopefully that adds my 2 pence to the conversation.

I am pleased at Tesla provided an animal friendly alternative leather. I stopped eating meat about 2 years ago now because I feel that if you're going to eat meat, you need to be prepared to be able to go out there and kill an animal. Yes, I know meat is available on the shelf in the supermarket, but the principle remains. I can't reconcile myself with that, so I stopped eating meat. I love chicken but I make a point of not eating it because I feel strongly about it and protecting the environment. As mentioned above, meat and dairy has a phenomenally bad impact on the climate and environmental pollution so I'm glad that I've been able to step out of it.

I agree on the point raised about synthetic/clean meat. I will happily get back on the meat wagon if I can eat meat where an animal hasn't had to die. As the supposed most intelligent species, we don't seem to be doing to well at protecting our habitat and as a result, we're doing irreparable damaged to the habitat of others.
 
I can understand and respect the views of those that choose not to eat meat, and share some of the concerns about farming - we ran an intensive pig fattening unit in the 1970s and 80s, and in the end my mother decided to sell up and buy another farm, primarily because of her increasing concern over animal welfare, specifically the obvious signs of stress in animals reared intensively. She switched to breeding free range Old Spots and Tamworths at the new farm, plus keeping a few dozen bullocks as a form of savings account.

One issue is the impact of a shift towards a zero meat society, if taken to it's logical conclusion. Almost all farm animals only exist because we created them, in effect. Centuries of selective breeding has created all the familiar livestock we see today. If we did switch wholly to a meat-free existence, pretty much all farm animals would become extinct. A few might hang on in the equivalent of zoos, but I doubt they would last long, both because of a lack of genetic diversity and because the same logic that argues against keeping animals for food should also apply to keeping animals for entertainment or amusement, or perhaps, keeping animals in any form of confinement.

The majority of cat and dog food fed to pets comes from the meat industry. In all probability, the majority of carnivorous pets would also have to go, alongside all the domesticated farm animals. Apart from the practical issues of providing enough synthesised meat to feed pets, there is also the moral issue - if it's wrong to keep animals in captivity on farms, surely it's also wrong to keep pets in captivity, too?

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll add that I've sat on an ethics committee that has effectively sentenced hundreds of mice to death, and that also colours my view. Before doing that for the first time, as someone who knew virtually nothing about live animal experiments, I asked to be shown around the lab, shown every detail of the work and felt that I had to experience first hand the process used to euthanise mice at the end. Only then did I feel able to judge whether or not the request should be supported or not. In my view, the benefit to human life from the work clearly outweighed the lives of hundreds of mice - others might have reached a different conclusion. The Home Office insist that these processes are followed, using non-partisan ethics committee members, for a good reason, and even now, years later, I think both the process, and the decisions we reached were sound.

I'm not convinced that everyone that chooses a vegetarian/vegan/whatever lifestyle would be prepared to live in a world where we had no domesticated animals, and didn't sometimes put the value of an animal's life below that of human life. The idea of a captive animal free world is a great-sounding ideal, and one that, on a theoretical level I tend to agree with, but the practical and ethical implications of removing millions of domesticated animals from our lives would be profound, and would raise a host of ethical dilemmas. For example, man has created thousands of breeds of animals - should we try to preserve every single one of them in sufficient numbers that they are self-sustaining? Should we set aside thousands of hectares of land to preserve all these animals? Should we make the "ownership" of pet animals a crime?
 
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I can understand why some people may want to becomes vegan but the need for a vegan diet to be supplemented with vitamins (chemicals) proves that man in not a herbivore.

Not strictly true. It would be possible for a vegan to manage just on forage so long as they did it right and didn't wash food. Yeast and bacteria between them can synthesis a range of B vitamins. It would be more a case of lucky to live in the right climate and ecology.
Otherwise you could argue that sheep suffering from white muscle disease can't be herbovors 'cos they need a vitamin E or selenium supplement when it's down to being on poor pasture. We omnivors will suffer from vit d deficiencies because we live indoors in the wrong climate and lifestyle, often eat iodised salt and vitamin enriched breakfast cereals and get scurvy when there's a lack of fresh stuff during harsh times in colder climates. Grooming and eating the ticks and fleas off your herbivore herd mates can be a valuable source of trace elements as well as the bugs on your grass......