Titan 7 18 inch lightweight wheels and efficiency gain?

[LowBattery]

@SSedan or @Clivew - are you saying that any claims of extended range with lighter wheels is exaggerated or incorrect? I'm not at all knowledgeable in this area and I may be misinterpreting things but it feels like this conversation is bouncing around to topics beyond the originally posed question.

 

[SSedan]

@Clivew
It's not aimed at you, everything matters on an EV, weight, ambient temperature, tires, aero efficiency. It is a discussion, there are many variables, and I get that.
I suspect some guys on this forum work for wheel guys they can't compete with the specs of a couple of vendors and they get their egos bruised.
I don't work for anyone in this industry, but buy products with quality specs at a reasonable price point. If those other vendors get butt hurt, then make your product better, more competitive, with a lifetime warranty at a reasonable price.

No bruised ego, you just aren't coherent enough debate, I am only responding because LowBattery asked.
Look at the paragraph under the absurd figures you posted, some of that was on a dyno not the road. The TIRES are different, you know the part that actually touches the road. The larger rims are wrapped in higher performance tires, at different pressures.
Anyone capable of the most basic data analysis would ask why the P100D saw so little variation vs. the 60D, that is a giant red flag in the data unless you can explain the source of that deviation.
Doesn't even say if the 19" are original twin spokes or the 21" are arachnids or what.

Far as your trying to pretend we are claiming overall weight has no impact, that is a LIE on your part to try and discredit the critical thinkers. Weight matters but 20-30lbs on a 4000lbs car is peanuts. 40lbs is 1% of 4000lbs are you arguing that a 1% weight reduction stretches range 5%, does that help demonstrate the absurdity of your stance?

Lighter rims can help braking, acceleration and high speed handling definitely, I am arguing that for daily driving these benefits are being overstated.

My experience with the Titan's has been superb. Better than rated efficiency compared to aeros with well over 30k under my belt on them. I am just saying I bought them for strength. The fact that I get no penalty very nice.

While I agree with tire compound being a large factor. Ignoring weight, especially rotational is kind of hard to.

A cyclist at a high level many years ago I used helium wheels by mavic. While not aero. The weight savings was immediate translation to power in a sprint. Almost if there were no wheels.

On a bike with wheel weight being a MUCH MUCH greater percentage of weight and likely further from center, and it being a much lower speed reducing aero issues, sprint is about acceleration, no argument there, but how much of your actual consumption in a car is acceleration. Also how are you accomplishing regen on your bike? One of the key points I am making is yes accelerating more weight takes more energy but regen captures a meaningful portion.

@SSedan or @Clivew - are you saying that any claims of extended range with lighter wheels is exaggerated or incorrect? I'm not at all knowledgeable in this area and I may be misinterpreting things but it feels like this conversation is bouncing around to topics beyond the originally posed question.

What I am saying is lighter wheels may have a positive effect in stop and go efficiency where you get to see the benefit of reduced energy consumption in repeated acceleration events and might be using the friction brakes more. The more you use regen and the steadier your speed the less help lighter wheels will be to efficiency. If the flow of stop and go traffic means you use the friction brakes more obviously that is energy you fail to recapture.

When talking "range" we are usually talking long distance high speed travel, in those cases aerodynamics are a big big deal. You don't have the acceleration events where lighter wheels will save energy.

TIRES TIRES TIRES are what people wantonly ignore in these discussions and just having the same product line label does not make two tires the same.

On the lighter wheels thing too remember how the forum is flooded with posts about the magical Arachnids on the S transforming the car. Oh no???? Me either.
First tests with Tesla's new lightweight Arachnid wheels on a Model S P100D - Electrek
Arachnids are hugely common and save 34lbs of rotating weight, which is a good thing, but where are the posts about the massive range gain?

 

[Xenoilphobe]

No bruised ego, you just aren't coherent enough debate, I am only responding because LowBattery asked.
Look at the paragraph under the absurd figures you posted, some of that was on a dyno not the road. The TIRES are different, you know the part that actually touches the road. The larger rims are wrapped in higher performance tires, at different pressures.
Anyone capable of the most basic data analysis would ask why the P100D saw so little variation vs. the 60D, that is a giant red flag in the data unless you can explain the source of that deviation.
Doesn't even say if the 19" are original twin spokes or the 21" are arachnids or what.

Far as your trying to pretend we are claiming overall weight has no impact, that is a LIE on your part to try and discredit the critical thinkers. Weight matters but 20-30lbs on a 4000lbs car is peanuts. 40lbs is 1% of 4000lbs are you arguing that a 1% weight reduction stretches range 5%, does that help demonstrate the absurdity of your stance?

Lighter rims can help braking, acceleration and high speed handling definitely, I am arguing that for daily driving these benefits are being overstated.



On a bike with wheel weight being a MUCH MUCH greater percentage of weight and likely further from center, and it being a much lower speed reducing aero issues, sprint is about acceleration, no argument there, but how much of your actual consumption in a car is acceleration. Also how are you accomplishing regen on your bike? One of the key points I am making is yes accelerating more weight takes more energy but regen captures a meaningful portion.



What I am saying is lighter wheels may have a positive effect in stop and go efficiency where you get to see the benefit of reduced energy consumption in repeated acceleration events and might be using the friction brakes more. The more you use regen and the steadier your speed the less help lighter wheels will be to efficiency. If the flow of stop and go traffic means you use the friction brakes more obviously that is energy you fail to recapture.

When talking "range" we are usually talking long distance high speed travel, in those cases aerodynamics are a big big deal. You don't have the acceleration events where lighter wheels will save energy.

TIRES TIRES TIRES are what people wantonly ignore in these discussions and just having the same product line label does not make two tires the same.

On the lighter wheels thing too remember how the forum is flooded with posts about the magical Arachnids on the S transforming the car. Oh no???? Me either.
First tests with Tesla's new lightweight Arachnid wheels on a Model S P100D - Electrek
Arachnids are hugely common and save 34lbs of rotating weight, which is a good thing, but where are the posts about the massive range gain?

I think you should buy some boat anchor wheels and post the results. Get some that weight 30 lbs or more and let us see the results.

 

[LowBattery]

Thanks for replying @SSedan

If I'm summarizing your position correctly, it is that lighter wheels would yield the most benefit to a TM3's range (which may not be much) for those who have commutes with a high percentage of stop-and-go traffic. Although you added the caveat that a heavier wheel benefits regen braking and lighter wheels would see diminished returns from regen. Additionally, the benefit to those who commute at highway speeds would be negligible.

Again, I'm not taking any position in this discussion. I wanted to get a better sense if there would be a decrease in range from purchasing light aftermarket wheels as that would be an additional cost to consider. Achieving parity or any improvement in range with aftermarket wheels (no matter how small) compared to the aeros would satisfy me.

 

[Clivew]

@SSedan or @Clivew - are you saying that any claims of extended range with lighter wheels is exaggerated or incorrect?

Yes.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

No bruised ego, you just aren't coherent enough debate, I am only responding because LowBattery asked.
Look at the paragraph under the absurd figures you posted, some of that was on a dyno not the road. The TIRES are different, you know the part that actually touches the road. The larger rims are wrapped in higher performance tires, at different pressures.
Anyone capable of the most basic data analysis would ask why the P100D saw so little variation vs. the 60D, that is a giant red flag in the data unless you can explain the source of that deviation.
Doesn't even say if the 19" are original twin spokes or the 21" are arachnids or what.

Far as your trying to pretend we are claiming overall weight has no impact, that is a LIE on your part to try and discredit the critical thinkers. Weight matters but 20-30lbs on a 4000lbs car is peanuts. 40lbs is 1% of 4000lbs are you arguing that a 1% weight reduction stretches range 5%, does that help demonstrate the absurdity of your stance?

Lighter rims can help braking, acceleration and high speed handling definitely, I am arguing that for daily driving these benefits are being overstated.

On a bike with wheel weight being a MUCH MUCH greater percentage of weight and likely further from center, and it being a much lower speed reducing aero issues, sprint is about acceleration, no argument there, but how much of your actual consumption in a car is acceleration. Also how are you accomplishing regen on your bike? One of the key points I am making is yes accelerating more weight takes more energy but regen captures a meaningful portion.



What I am saying is lighter wheels may have a positive effect in stop and go efficiency where you get to see the benefit of reduced energy consumption in repeated acceleration events and might be using the friction brakes more. The more you use regen and the steadier your speed the less help lighter wheels will be to efficiency. If the flow of stop and go traffic means you use the friction brakes more obviously that is energy you fail to recapture.

When talking "range" we are usually talking long distance high speed travel, in those cases aerodynamics are a big big deal. You don't have the acceleration events where lighter wheels will save energy.

TIRES TIRES TIRES are what people wantonly ignore in these discussions and just having the same product line label does not make two tires the same.

On the lighter wheels thing too remember how the forum is flooded with posts about the magical Arachnids on the S transforming the car. Oh no???? Me either.
First tests with Tesla's new lightweight Arachnid wheels on a Model S P100D - Electrek
Arachnids are hugely common and save 34lbs of rotating weight, which is a good thing, but where are the posts about the massive range gain?

Brooks Weisblatt (the guy in the video) didn't test for range gain, he only tested 0-60 in the video, and Brooks was comparing the Tesla Arachnids to $10,000 forged alloy Speed Design Pulse MV1 by ADV1 aftermarket wheels that weight 1 pound more than the Arachnids, not the stock 21 Turbines., note the performance gains provided below verses the actual stock 21's OEM Turbines.

ADV1 claims the following (comparing Pulse 21" to Tesla OEM 21"):

ENGINEERED EFFICIENCY
One of the main considerations in the development of this wheel was to increase performance, while not decreasing efficiency. In fact, in our testing the wheels improved battery mileage efficiency by 2-5% under comparative testing to stock wheels.

Now lets add some tires:

Michelin Green X - "Tire rolling resistance has an impact on vehicle fuel consumption estimated to range from about 4% during urban driving to 7% during highway driving."

I'll stick with my 7% number in the first post, I believe that is on the conservative end of my estimate when moving from 20" stock fat boys, which was your originally posted question by @happyluckbox



PRESS RELEASE – “Pulse” Wheels for Tesla Automobiles Designed by Speed Design GmbH, Manufactured by ADV.1 Wheels

Speed Design GmbH (in cooperation with ADV.1) introduces its new line of exclusive performance wheels for Tesla Automobiles.

Engineered Performance.

Available in both 1-piece and 2-piece forged aluminum, the newly developed wheels were engineered specifically for the Model S. They incorporate a turbine blade design to minimize air temperature around the brake calipers.

Special attention has been given to maximizing the structural integrity to handle the unique torque forces of the Tesla Model S P85D. These Pulse wheels utilize OEM lug nuts, insuring that the proper torque applied to each wheel is maintained according to Tesla manufacturer specification.

The profile and dimensions of the wheel have also been designed to minimize weight, and maximize the road feedback to the driver, especially when cornering.

Engineered Style.

The directional turbine “blade” look of the Pulse wheels are made to complement the technical and stylish nature of Tesla electric sport luxury vehicles. Developed with ADV.1 Wheels, they feature a maximized deep concave appearance and multi- directional surface curves engineered for the first time in a forged wheel.

Engineered Elements.

Details matter. The wheel cap grove will accommodate the OEM Tesla wheel cap. OEM tire sizes from the Performance and Dual Motor models (P85, P85+, P85D) are maintained, so tires can be swapped in directly. Back hub contact pad has been machined specifically for Tesla Model S, to ensure 100% contact with the wheel hub.

Engineered Efficiency.

One of the main considerations in the development of this wheel was to increase performance, while not decreasing efficiency. In fact, in our testing the wheels improved battery mileage efficiency by 2-5% under comparative testing to stock wheels.

Technical Data:

Pulse MV.2 Blades (2 piece) 21 x 9.0 et 30
21x9.5 et23
weight: 31.4 / 31.6 lbs MSRP : $8,950

Pulse MV.1 Blades (1 piece) 21 x 9.0 et 30
21x10.5 et35
28.4 / 29.4 lbs

$10,500

Performance Data (PBIR, March 4th, 2015):

On Pulse Wheels

0-60 MPH: 3.40 sec
0-100 MPH: 8.56 sec
30-60 MPH: 1.97 sec
1/4 mile: 11.60 seconds @115.78 MPH

On Tesla OEM 21" Turbines

0-60 MPH: 3.53 sec
0-100 MPH: 8.87 sec
30-60 MPH: 2.04 sec
1/4 Mile: 11.73 seconds @113.70 MPH

*wheels tested were Pulse MV.2 (2 Piece) wheels 21x9.0 front / 21x10.5 rear against Tesla alloy wheels 21x9.0 front / 21x10.5 rear

** Efficiency testing : 2% improvement on EV mileage when tested with Pulse MV2 wheel setup. Front wheel/tire combo is 0.5 pounds lighter than stock. Rear wheel/tire combo is 4 pounds lighter than stock.

About the Driver : Brooks Weisblat is the owner of dragtimes.com , and he has the fastest published P85D in the country. He has made 100’s of passes on this exact track car and squeezed every last millisecond out of it. In one attempt, he passed his record on the first run... did it a second time... passed his record again.

ADV.1 Wheels : is the leader in innovative wheel design and manufacturing techniques. Their unique wheels have found there way into the hands of clients all over the world and for some of the most exclusive, high end cars in the industry.

Speed Design GmbH: Is a design studio based in the San Francisco Bay area, specializing in aerodynamic and performance improvements to individual automobile applications. “Pulse” is the division dedicated to Tesla Automobiles. More information at speeddesign.me and pulsespeed.com

 

[Clivew]

Companies make many ‘claims’ when trying to sell expensive products, they always have, and always will. Some are accurate and honest, some are not.

As already detailed, due to physics (ie facts), wheels weighing 0.5lbs and 4lbs lighter than stock are going to contribute to imperceivable changes in vehicle efficiency.

If the efficiency gains are real (which can’t proven unless a 3rd party carries out proper controlled testing), they will be due to a reduction in aerodynamic drag and friction drag, NOT wheel weight.

I’m not disputing gains of acceleration and suspension performance, just efficiency.

Please stop posting copy and paste articles etc. If you want to dispute what I am saying, please use your own words using hard facts based on physics.

 

[Ejl80]

Companies make many ‘claims’ when trying to sell expensive products, they always have, and always will. Some are accurate and honest, some are not.

As already detailed, due to physics (ie facts), wheels weighing 0.5lbs and 4lbs lighter than stock are going to contribute to imperceivable changes in vehicle efficiency.

If the efficiency gains are real (which can’t proven unless a 3rd party carries out proper controlled testing), they will be due to a reduction in aerodynamic drag and friction drag, NOT wheel weight.

I’m not disputing gains of acceleration and suspension performance, just efficiency.

Please stop posting copy and paste articles etc. If you want to dispute what I am saying, please use your own words using hard facts based on physics.

Are you telling that user they shouldn’t reference their sources?

 

[Clivew]

Are you telling that user they shouldn’t reference their sources?

If the claims are from companies selling their own products and that's the only reference the user is continually pushing as fact.

Impartial and controlled 3rd party testing, absolutely, or factual physics based discussion from the user.

Oh, and I'm not telling, I'm asking, thus 'please'