Coming from a P3D+. I'm curious what shaving the 20inch wheels to the 18inch titan 7 wheels will gain me in efficiency? That's about a 10lb weight savings of rotational mass per wheel.
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Titan 7 18 inch lightweight wheels and efficiency gain?
- Thread starter happyluckbox
- Start date
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
~7%. I'll find the post, you might also want to look at Martian Wheels too, they start at $499 per wheel and are fully forged and come with a lifetime warranty just like the Titan7's and are even lighter. Also the tires make a big difference too, if you get super sticky sport tires, verses low rolling resistance tires Michelin calls them Green X, you will see a mileage drop too.
Michelin Green X - "Tire rolling resistance has an impact on vehicle fuel consumption estimated to range from about 4% during urban driving to 7% during highway driving."
The stock 18" is rated at 322, while the stock 20" is rated at 299 (downhill in a hurricane). The Martians and Titans can beat the stock 18 by another ~5 lbs per corner... so you should do a little better than the EPA ratings.
Compare Side-by-Side
Michelin Green X - "Tire rolling resistance has an impact on vehicle fuel consumption estimated to range from about 4% during urban driving to 7% during highway driving."
The stock 18" is rated at 322, while the stock 20" is rated at 299 (downhill in a hurricane). The Martians and Titans can beat the stock 18 by another ~5 lbs per corner... so you should do a little better than the EPA ratings.
Compare Side-by-Side
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This group fixates on light wheels way too much.
It may help in stop and go but if the aerodynamics are poor it may hurt on the highway.
EVs stand to gain less efficiency from lighter wheels due to regenerative braking recovering energy used to accelerate them where ICE uses friction brakes and wastes all that energy.
Lighter wheels will improve friction brake performance and steering feel.
It may help in stop and go but if the aerodynamics are poor it may hurt on the highway.
EVs stand to gain less efficiency from lighter wheels due to regenerative braking recovering energy used to accelerate them where ICE uses friction brakes and wastes all that energy.
Lighter wheels will improve friction brake performance and steering feel.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
You are partially correct. Aerodynamics do play a role, but so does wheel weight and tire composition. Riding around on non-aerodynamic 29 lb wheels with sticky sports tires, is probably the worst setup for drivers who want more range. The faster way to regain it, is to drop the weight and get low rolling resistant tires - personally I hate the aero covers - I am sure their is a better design the could be developed (kinda like the crazy aero that the CyberTruck achieves with a weird shape).
I like the weight loss of the wheels for handling (or as you say steering) and more responsive braking and acceleration, the by product is better range and a stronger wheel if you use Mono-block forged and I like the lifetime warranty, Tesla won't even give you that with their wheels.
Summary:
Range improvement - Yes
Braking improvement - Yes
Handling improvement - Yes
Lifetime warranty - Yes
Stronger than non -forged - Yes
Wallet lightening - Yes
Here is a full list of 18 inch wheels for Model 3, note the Marian Wheels wins the weight loss program with an 18 inch wheel that only weighs 17.4 lbs.
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Tire compound is the biggest factor.
Wheel weight for a EV I would argue is the least important factor but one too many here fixate on.
Wheel weight for a EV I would argue is the least important factor but one too many here fixate on.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
I am fixated - I have a road bike with carbon fiber wheels, and the energy difference, feel and handling are massively improved. If someone would make reasonably priced carbon fiber wheels, they would be on my car - yesterday.
You do get how different the applications are right?
What are you basing the increased range argument on? Haven't seen a test.
I fully agree they will be easier to accelerate, but much of that energy could be recaptured later with regen.
Also "range" would usually be used to discuss pushing the limits of driving distance on a charge. Which would usually be more steady state cruise, without repeated acceleration there isn't even opportunity for reduced weight to save energy, and again we get into aerodynamic concerns.
I am not say lighter wheels are bad. What I am arguing is that the technical fact that they will be easier to accelerate isn't going to translate into real world range gains once you factor in regen and the fact that when range matters most is usually long steady state cruise events and without the repeated acceleration to potential to save energy isn't even there.
Now you want to talk saving rotating weight from the steering feel and improved friction braking, absolutely. Even if you want to drop the word range and use "efficiency" instead because in stop and go driving there would be more potential for energy savings and that is likely to be at speeds where aerodynamic compromises matter less.
What are you basing the increased range argument on? Haven't seen a test.
I fully agree they will be easier to accelerate, but much of that energy could be recaptured later with regen.
Also "range" would usually be used to discuss pushing the limits of driving distance on a charge. Which would usually be more steady state cruise, without repeated acceleration there isn't even opportunity for reduced weight to save energy, and again we get into aerodynamic concerns.
I am not say lighter wheels are bad. What I am arguing is that the technical fact that they will be easier to accelerate isn't going to translate into real world range gains once you factor in regen and the fact that when range matters most is usually long steady state cruise events and without the repeated acceleration to potential to save energy isn't even there.
Now you want to talk saving rotating weight from the steering feel and improved friction braking, absolutely. Even if you want to drop the word range and use "efficiency" instead because in stop and go driving there would be more potential for energy savings and that is likely to be at speeds where aerodynamic compromises matter less.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
@SSedan - agreed lets use your word efficiency or even mechanical efficiency - the HP output of the Teslas motors are fixed at Peak rate (software controlled), how efficiently can I get that to the road surface will definitely give me gains in performance.
There are tons of references to performance gains (which means the car is running more mechanically efficient), companies like Ford, Koenigsegg, McLaren, Ferrari, and Porsche wouldn't buy wheels from Carbon Revolution, ESE Carbon, DyMag, and others if there wasn't a performance benefit with lighter wheels.
Below is a run showing 2 Mustangs, one with light carbon fiber wheels and one with Aluminum APEX wheels, note the performance gains in one lap (13 CAR Lengths is a massive gain!!)
A simple test, get your bicycle and add 20 pound weights to your front and rear tire and go try and climb a moderately steep hill. Go down that same hill and apply your brakes. Go over some speed bumps and see how hard it is to control the bike, make some high speed turns and feel how the bike wants to pull to the outside edge of the lane.
Another example Mustang GT350R (Carbon Wheels) and Mustang GT350 (APEX Aluminum Wheels)
You can view the interactive track map here - Technology | Carbon Revolution | One-Piece Carbon Fiber Wheels
Do the Shelby GT350R’s Carbon-Fiber Wheels Help Performance? – Feature – Car and Driver
There are tons of references to performance gains (which means the car is running more mechanically efficient), companies like Ford, Koenigsegg, McLaren, Ferrari, and Porsche wouldn't buy wheels from Carbon Revolution, ESE Carbon, DyMag, and others if there wasn't a performance benefit with lighter wheels.
Below is a run showing 2 Mustangs, one with light carbon fiber wheels and one with Aluminum APEX wheels, note the performance gains in one lap (13 CAR Lengths is a massive gain!!)
A simple test, get your bicycle and add 20 pound weights to your front and rear tire and go try and climb a moderately steep hill. Go down that same hill and apply your brakes. Go over some speed bumps and see how hard it is to control the bike, make some high speed turns and feel how the bike wants to pull to the outside edge of the lane.
Another example Mustang GT350R (Carbon Wheels) and Mustang GT350 (APEX Aluminum Wheels)
You can view the interactive track map here - Technology | Carbon Revolution | One-Piece Carbon Fiber Wheels
Do the Shelby GT350R’s Carbon-Fiber Wheels Help Performance? – Feature – Car and Driver
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Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
Also recommend checking in with @SamT he was the first one to report range increases with the lighter wheels.
Link to his feedback here
Also another good resource explaining the benefits of lightweight wheels:
https://www.dymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Dymag_CarTechDoc_V9.pdf
Advanced Composite,Carbon Fiber Wheels - Carbonline Wheels
Porsche Used a Giant Braiding Machine to Create Carbon Fiber Wheels
High Performance Wheels Market Share - Industry Report 2026
Link to his feedback here
Also another good resource explaining the benefits of lightweight wheels:
https://www.dymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Dymag_CarTechDoc_V9.pdf
Advanced Composite,Carbon Fiber Wheels - Carbonline Wheels
Porsche Used a Giant Braiding Machine to Create Carbon Fiber Wheels
High Performance Wheels Market Share - Industry Report 2026
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From SAMT
"I have 18" all season tires on the Titan, so far so good, it rides better, not as rough as the stock 20" wheels, and they handle almost as good for day to day driving. The big plus on the 18" wheels is the range is much better by about 10 to 15% so far."
If it were 5% Tesla would leverage economy of scale and offer forged wheels.
To any critical thinker you just blew your argument by citing obvious exaggerated claims. Sam might believe it but that doesn't make it so. Hell 5% is edge of belief if he uses no regen 10%-15 is pure fantasy.
"I have 18" all season tires on the Titan, so far so good, it rides better, not as rough as the stock 20" wheels, and they handle almost as good for day to day driving. The big plus on the 18" wheels is the range is much better by about 10 to 15% so far."
If it were 5% Tesla would leverage economy of scale and offer forged wheels.
To any critical thinker you just blew your argument by citing obvious exaggerated claims. Sam might believe it but that doesn't make it so. Hell 5% is edge of belief if he uses no regen 10%-15 is pure fantasy.
Clivew
Member
Lightweight wheels improve suspension performance and increase grip (due to a lower unsprung weight), improving acceleration, deceleration and lateral g-force. The same thing is happening on your push bike. Unfortunately, they will have minimal impact on EV efficiency. For this, aero drag and tyre friction are king.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
@SSedan
Cool free market, buy whatever you want, you asked for a claim an I gave you several. Hell just changing the tires will get you ~7%, which I posted above.
Believe what you want. I'm cool with that. I never claimed 10 to 15% a 3rd person did, not me.
I figured an actual buyer might have some credibility since you don't believe me, Ford, Koenigsegg, McLaren, Ferrari, Porsche, Vuhl, Carbon Rev and physics.
I get the point you are trying to make: aero plays a role at sustained speed, hence the crappy looking wheel covers on Model 3.
Tesla Model S and Model X: Here's how wheel size can affect efficiency - Electrek
Cool free market, buy whatever you want, you asked for a claim an I gave you several. Hell just changing the tires will get you ~7%, which I posted above.
Believe what you want. I'm cool with that. I never claimed 10 to 15% a 3rd person did, not me.
I figured an actual buyer might have some credibility since you don't believe me, Ford, Koenigsegg, McLaren, Ferrari, Porsche, Vuhl, Carbon Rev and physics.
I get the point you are trying to make: aero plays a role at sustained speed, hence the crappy looking wheel covers on Model 3.
Tesla Model S and Model X: Here's how wheel size can affect efficiency - Electrek
- 4.9% more consumption for Model S P100D with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
- 5.2% more consumption for Model S P90D with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
- 11.6% more consumption for Model S 60/75 with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
- 11.8% more consumption for Model S 60D/75D/90D with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
- 22.2% more consumption for Model X P90D with 22″ vs 20″ wheels.
- 22.5% more consumption for Model X 60D/75D/90D with 22″ vs 20″ wheels.
- 23.3% more consumption for Model X P100D with 22″ vs 20″ wheels.
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Clivew
Member
Yes, of course wheel size affects range, due to aerodynamics and drag. Unless the wheel is a smooth disc, the bigger the diameter, the faster the outer part of the ‘spokes’ will be travelling, thus increasing turbulence and drag, a LOT!
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Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
Your argument is that a lighter weight vehicle will not increase efficiency? Correct? Take the other benefits out of the argument. (Handling, steering, improved acceleration, de-accel and lateral G forces, rotational mass etc)
That's your argument? Just want to make sure I frame it right.
That's your argument? Just want to make sure I frame it right.
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Clivew
Member
I’m not sure if that is aimed at me or not because I haven’t mentioned vehicle weight. Argument? I thought this was a discussion. Well, at least I now know your mindest.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
@Clivew
It's not aimed at you, everything matters on an EV, weight, ambient temperature, tires, aero efficiency. It is a discussion, there are many variables, and I get that.
I suspect some guys on this forum work for wheel guys they can't compete with the specs of a couple of vendors and they get their egos bruised.
I don't work for anyone in this industry, but buy products with quality specs at a reasonable price point. If those other vendors get butt hurt, then make your product better, more competitive, with a lifetime warranty at a reasonable price.
It's not aimed at you, everything matters on an EV, weight, ambient temperature, tires, aero efficiency. It is a discussion, there are many variables, and I get that.
I suspect some guys on this forum work for wheel guys they can't compete with the specs of a couple of vendors and they get their egos bruised.
I don't work for anyone in this industry, but buy products with quality specs at a reasonable price point. If those other vendors get butt hurt, then make your product better, more competitive, with a lifetime warranty at a reasonable price.
My experience with the Titan's has been superb. Better than rated efficiency compared to aeros with well over 30k under my belt on them. I am just saying I bought them for strength. The fact that I get no penalty very nice.
While I agree with tire compound being a large factor. Ignoring weight, especially rotational is kind of hard to.
A cyclist at a high level many years ago I used helium wheels by mavic. While not aero. The weight savings was immediate translation to power in a sprint. Almost if there were no wheels.
While I agree with tire compound being a large factor. Ignoring weight, especially rotational is kind of hard to.
A cyclist at a high level many years ago I used helium wheels by mavic. While not aero. The weight savings was immediate translation to power in a sprint. Almost if there were no wheels.
Clivew
Member
Cool. Yes, of course, a lot of things matter in respect to efficiency, but wheel weight (especially the small difference in weight we are looking at) will have an insignificant effect on vehicle range. If a wheel is heavier, it will use more energy to accelerate, but once the rpm is stable, it will have more potential energy to be used for regen. It's simple physics. At a steady state, whether the wheel is heavy or light, makes makes no noticeable difference in regards to energy to keep it spinning. Only friction in bearings etc, tyre friction and aerodynamic drag will try to slow it down. In space, with no aero drag, a heavy or light wheel will keep spinning at the same rpm with no other external forces acting on it.
A comparison with a push bike doesn't help. The percentage of wheel weight to all up weight is completely different, comparing a bicycle to a car. On a bike, the potential energy of the spinning wheel or kinetic energy due to elevation is not harnessed, and only felt when going back down a hill, or coasting on flat ground. On a flat road, once at steady speed and in a straight line, you will not know if the wheel is heavy or light in regards to pedal power. You will only notice this in regards to acceleration (on legs), decel (on braking) and suspension performance/steering feel/stability due to the unsprung weight and gyro effects.
If I can, I will always fit the lightest strongest wheel to my car, because light strong wheels allow much better suspension performance, improving grip. The wheels have to be a good design though. Having lightweight wheels that flex a lot will actually slow you down due to less grip, because the flex is undamped and will cause an uncontrolled variation of load on the tyre and changes in the geometry of the wheel/tyre. Due to a tyre's load sensitivity, when pushing it to produce maximum grip, this flex and load variation will cause lower overall grip.
A comparison with a push bike doesn't help. The percentage of wheel weight to all up weight is completely different, comparing a bicycle to a car. On a bike, the potential energy of the spinning wheel or kinetic energy due to elevation is not harnessed, and only felt when going back down a hill, or coasting on flat ground. On a flat road, once at steady speed and in a straight line, you will not know if the wheel is heavy or light in regards to pedal power. You will only notice this in regards to acceleration (on legs), decel (on braking) and suspension performance/steering feel/stability due to the unsprung weight and gyro effects.
If I can, I will always fit the lightest strongest wheel to my car, because light strong wheels allow much better suspension performance, improving grip. The wheels have to be a good design though. Having lightweight wheels that flex a lot will actually slow you down due to less grip, because the flex is undamped and will cause an uncontrolled variation of load on the tyre and changes in the geometry of the wheel/tyre. Due to a tyre's load sensitivity, when pushing it to produce maximum grip, this flex and load variation will cause lower overall grip.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
@happyluckbox
Here are all the 18 inch wheels that fit the performance Model 3
Source: Here is a full list of 18 inch wheels for Model
Here are all the 18 inch wheels that fit the performance Model 3
Source: Here is a full list of 18 inch wheels for Model
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