Toyota is Sticking With Hybrids

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I found the car's controls very "quirky" and the driving position and seats not that comfortable (and that is just my personal opinion), but what I really couldn't stand was the start-stop of the ICE all the time. I'd come to a red light and the engine would stop... then on the green, the car would start to accelerate on electricity. The ICE would fire up again about half way through the intersection and the whole car would "shudder" every time. To me, it just felt like an extremely over-complicated system that didn't deliver a very good driving experience at all. The braking re-gen seemed a little "jerky" to me as well.

One thing I can't remember is if the a/c shut down with the ICE. I was in a friend's Honda Insight Hybrid last summer, and the a/c definately did shut off with the ICE making the car very uncomfortable in stop and go summer city traffic.

I was very pleasantly surprised with our company's Volt I think because it is driven by a single speed electric motor and not some cobbled together Frankenstein of a gas and electric motor both working to move the car. Sure, the Volt is a very complex machine, but I think GM's "series hybrid" works a lot better than the "parallel hybrid" systems of most other cars.

At the end of the day, I was looking for simplicity, and that is where the Model S shines.

I think a lot of people are put off by how different a Prius is compared to most cars. It's really about optimizing fuel economy and utility versus the driving "experience". Still, in most respects it performs well all things considered. Handling apparently cleans up well with a bigger set of sway bars, a beefier frame brace, and some lowering springs or coilovers, since it doesn't weight a whole lot.

The acceleration IMO is decent on the low end and the same as most economy cars of the same vintage on the freeway (crumby), and it really shines in terms of mileage below 40mph if you know how to drive it. Mechanically, a Prius is less mechanically complex than just about any hybrid, although people don't notice this because of the way the engine, motors, and transmission operate compared to conventional cars with fixed gear reduction. It's really marvelous from an engineering point of view, but difficult to get used to because CVTs, not to mention those with integrated motors that can serve as inputs/outputs, are not something we're used to.

GM's series hybrid design is much smoother than most parallel hybrids, but it also is ~20% less efficient on gas on average, and I believe more complicated, so like most things it's a mixed bag. The S is far less complicated mechanically, but it's also more complicated electronically, for obvious reasons. If anything, I'd say something like the Leaf is the simplest car around, although with drawbacks in battery lifespan in warm climates. Every car is really a mixed bag of design/cost considerations.

P.S. Your friend's Honda Insight turns off the A/C because the climate control is set to eco and they are probably fine with it. It they set it to auto, it would stay on even while stopped.

 

[mknox]

P.S. Your friend's Honda Insight turns off the A/C because the climate control is set to eco and they are probably fine with it. It they set it to auto, it would stay on even while stopped.

Thanks. I wonder if he even knows that? The car was almost brand new when I was in it with him. I assumed the compressor was being belt driven by the ICE because the fan stayed on when the engine stopped, but the air quickly started to blow warm until the ICE restarted.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

He might not. Honda's climate control system is nice once you get used to it IMO, but not very intuitive. The compressor is belt driven and if his Insight is like mine, the radiator fan turns on if the coolant temp sensor is high enough and the ign is on even when the engine auto-stops. The fan will also turn on when the climate control is set on auto if I'm my memory serves me, but not when it's set to econ. The same should apply for the heater.

 

[aronth5]

"The "father of the Prius" said this week that his company plans to continue to push the state of the art in hybrid technology, and added that most consumers aren't yet ready for pure electric vehicles."

As much as the forum members want to disagree with his statement it is still accurate. A large number of consumers won't be ready for pure electric vehicles until after Gen3 comes out and is successful.
And even then it will still be a minority until Gen4 is out.

 

[brianman]

I took a trip to a friend's baby shower one state away

You might want to use a different measuring stick than "state". I don't think many cars can make it from Yreka, CA to TX without refueling/recharging. In the northeast, it's a whole different story. They make states smaller over there.

 

[ggies07]

"The "father of the Prius" said this week that his company plans to continue to push the state of the art in hybrid technology, and added that most consumers aren't yet ready for pure electric vehicles."

As much as the forum members want to disagree with his statement it is still accurate. A large number of consumers won't be ready for pure electric vehicles until after Gen3 comes out and is successful.
And even then it will still be a minority until Gen4 is out.

Yep, I disagree. If the auto companies would have come out full blast saying EVs are the future, pushing them at every dealership, the consumers would follow their lead. If they would say 80-90 miles that the other EVs go right now is acceptable, people would come to believe it and buy them. And to me, would spread the EV adoption a lot quicker than it is now. Personally, I don't want someone telling me I'm not ready for something. I see what an ICE, Hybrid, and EV do. The EV is obliviously the best choice.

 

[JRP3]

Toyota seems to have lost the spirit of innovation. The Supra was innovative, the RAV4 was innovative, the Prius was innovative, but really nothing they've done since then has been. They've succeeded by being safe, reliable, efficient, and a bit boring. Their huge investment in hybrid technology keeps them trapped. They'll ride it as long as they can and will probably be left behind for a while in the transition to EVs.

 

[aronth5]

Yep, I disagree. If the auto companies would have come out full blast saying EVs are the future, pushing them at every dealership, the consumers would follow their lead. If they would say 80-90 miles that the other EVs go right now is acceptable, people would come to believe it and buy them. And to me, would spread the EV adoption a lot quicker than it is now. Personally, I don't want someone telling me I'm not ready for something. I see what an ICE, Hybrid, and EV do. The EV is obliviously the best choice.

Unfortunately though the auto companies won't come out full blast as you've stated which is exactly the reason the majority won't be ready for pure electrics yet. While Tesla and the Model S are amazing only a small number of people now understand the paradigm shift that is now underway. Convincing the majority that at least one EV in their family is right for them will happen, it will just take time. We are still at the early adopter stage so give it time. But for now most are not ready.

 

[ggies07]

Unfortunately though the auto companies won't come out full blast as you've stated which is exactly the reason the majority won't be ready for pure electrics yet. While Tesla and the Model S are amazing only a small number of people now understand the paradigm shift that is now underway. Convincing the majority that at least one EV in their family is right for them will happen, it will just take time. We are still at the early adopter stage so give it time. But for now most are not ready.

Right, the consumers are not ready only because they see no faith behind the auto companies, that doesn't mean they couldn't be.....we all know 80-90 miles per charge is enough for a daily drive. It's all relative. Seems like auto companies are happy with the hybrids because they thought it was going in that direction and didn't see Tesla coming along and making EVs look attractive.

 

[constraint]

I think Toyota is making the right move for them. They still have the halo effect with the Prius line and they sell a lot of them. With the exception of the Model S, most current EV's are extremely limited in functionality and are not selling all that well (albeit I believe that is the intent of most manufactures to get ZEV overturned).

Toyota already has a lot of experience in electronics and suppliers that could easily ramp up to a BEV when the market conditions are better. Why spend billions on research when you already have the halo effect and you can get into the game pretty easily in 2 to 3 years. Yes Toyota is playing it safe, but I would rather sell a ton of hybrids then spend billions on research to sell a few EV's.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Wonder where Akio Toyoda himself stands on all this. I thought he was very impressed with the Roadster that Elon Musk gave him. And, obviously, their investment in Tesla has appreciated well. Tesla has done good with the previous part-Toyota-owned factory as well.

Don't they see atleast a halo Lexus EV on the horizon - on the lines of the one in Minority Report - for starters?!

 

[rolosrevenge]

Actually though, Toyota doesn't need to worry. Because of their investment in Tesla, they have access to the tech should their hybrid gambit fail. Let's be honest, the RAV4 EV currently is the best non-Tesla EV out there in terms of range and carrying capacity. I imagine that if EVs take off faster than Toyota anticipates, you'll see a whole line of "Powered by Tesla" vehicles in the Toyota lineup. They are really the only automakers that can hedge their bets like this.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Actually though, Toyota doesn't need to worry. Because of their investment in Tesla, they have access to the tech should their hybrid gambit fail. Let's be honest, the RAV4 EV currently is the best non-Tesla EV out there in terms of range and carrying capacity. I imagine that if EVs take off faster than Toyota anticipates, you'll see a whole line of "Powered by Tesla" vehicles in the Toyota lineup. They are really the only automakers that can hedge their bets like this.

No way. This venture wasn't a profit maker... it was purely regulatory compliance, and costing Toyota TENS of millions of dollars to make only 2600 units. Plus, there are tons of technical problems, many originating from Tesla products.

Now, I can see Toyota EVs after about the year 2020 with Supercharger access. But, Toyota is locked into hydrogen for regulatory compliance through at least 2018.

 

[jeffhre]

I know I'll probably draw a lot of fire for this, but I rented a Prius a year or so ago in California for a week and came away from that experience determined to NEVER buy one of those. The ONLY good thing I can say about it is that is does get decent gas mileage.

Very true, seems to be consensus among EV enthusiasts. And the good news for Prius fans is you have no complaints, since it seems to get good gas mileage, and that is what it was designed for. Though some might not understand, EV enthusiasts will recommend not buying one, not because it doesn't get great enough gas mileage, but because of everything else.

In general, people who see cars as appliances, will never understand that bland isn't a feature that every car buyer will gleefully put a check by on the list of options.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm now fully electric for everything except driving on a racetrack.

Isn't that the real reason Tesla engineered battery swaps! It's faster than filling up with gas right?

 

[jerry33]

Toyota seems to have lost the spirit of innovation. The Supra was innovative, the RAV4 was innovative, the Prius was innovative, but really nothing they've done since then has been.

The Prius came out of the real problem that Toyota had in the early '90s. In Japan they had lost so much market share that 40% penetration appeared to be an unobtainable goal (in the '70s they were at ~80%). Basically no one other than government and a few old folks purchased Toyotas because Toyota was not considered to have any exciting, or even new, technology. So out of desperation they put several of their best engineers from various disciplines in a room and told them to come up with a car for the 21st century. It was never expected that an actual car would come out of it, only that there would be some new tech that they could put in their existing car. However, after the Prius became a success and their market share improved, Toyota lost no time in going back to the status quo. (This is all, except for the last sentence, from The Prius That Shook the World.)

 

[Doug_G]

Isn't that the real reason Tesla engineered battery swaps! It's faster than filling up with gas right?

Would be wonderful if the technology was actually available.

I do occasionally take an EV to the track, but it's the Roadster, not the Model S.

 

[texex91]

My wife and I have owned a 2008 Prius since new. It is a reliable, economical car. And very boring to drive. No zip and mediocre handling at best. But it does what it is designed to do very well.

We just ordered an S85 and are selling the Prius and one of my Porsches to be able to pay cash for the Tesla.

Toyota is making a big mistake in not making a serious effort now to have a mass market electric vehicle ready to sell soon.

And Porsche is missing the boat as well: a $900,000 hybrid supercar (918 model just coming out) is not going to help them survive. The new $135,000 (before options) Panamera hybrid is not serious competition for the P85+ which is significantly cheaper .

Can't speak to the Prius, but I came out of a 911, and my P+ blows it away on so many fronts. You will enjoy the P+ (if that's what you are buying) as the suspension, torque and handling are amazing.

 

[CheeseFrog]

And Porsche is missing the boat as well: a $900,000 hybrid supercar (918 model just coming out) is not going to help them survive. The new $135,000 (before options) Panamera hybrid is not serious competition for the P85+ which is significantly cheaper .

What boat are you talking about? They probably lose money on the 918, but it doesn't matter when they come into the room swinging their 6 minute, 58 second *****. Nobody else can even come close. They need to double the output on those electric motors in that thing and it'll encroach even deeper into dedicated-track car territory.