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The whole "they're giant auto manufacturers, they could take over the EV market with their eyes closed" attitude has demonstrably not played out. The reality is that there is no magic to being a "giant automaker". Any startup can hire away people with decades of experience; if anything, big automakers are saddled with outdated infrastructure and production models. The only thing that they usually have going for them against upstarts is capital. But given that Tesla has a market value on par with a major automaker, they don't even have that.

The biggest problem is that they don't even seem to understand what they're doing wrong. They think that you can make any old EV, put it on the market, and so long as you have some "current industry standard range and performance" and subsidize the price down to some "current industry standard price", you'll have a winner. Which of course it doesn't work that way at all. EV customers want charging infrastructure and rapid charging. EV customers want innovation in multiple aspects of the vehicle. EV customers don't want something that looks like an ordinary ICE budget sedan or a boxfish-on-wheels. They don't want to buy from a company that they don't think is actually dedicated to EVs but is instead doing it for a combination of PR purposes and CAFE standards/EV credits.

Just the way that they design these things shows that they don't understand anything at all. Both the Leaf and the Bolt have a drag coefficient of 0.32, which isn't even good for a regular ICE sedan; for an EV that's an abomination - all because they wanted some particular, ridiculous style and they always let their terrible stylists have first dibs at design, with their aero people only doing tweaks. "No problem," they think, "We'll just put in bigger battery packs and subsidize the vehicle so people buy it." And that right there shows that they don't actually have a belief that the time for EVs is now. They see them as some "maybe some day but now they're just a little PR project that we could kill off if the winds change" side project to their main ICE business. And that's really how they look at everything, not just EVs - it's always "business as usual, even if you have a glaring problem staring you in the face". One of my pet peeves is how massive and expensive they've let wiring harnesses get because for decades they never saw fit to change their design philosophy from "Need a new piece of functionality? Wire in yet another box from yet another OEM and grow your alternator to handle the drain!" to "Centralize, multifuctional hardware, eliminate redundancy and simplify."

Everything about Tesla shows that they actually believe in EVs, believe in radical change to the industry, and are rapidly turning this belief into reality.

Until I see any signs that any of the traditional major automakers "get it", I see no hope for them in the long term. The notion that they're just going to jump in when the water gets warm, without having built up charging infrastructure, without having invested vast sums in their own battery technology (thinking they'll just off-the-shelf it), without having streamlined their manufacturing processes, without having collected reams of consumer data, without having to innovate, without having ever done anything to earn their potential customers' loyalty... their attempts to jump in will go as badly as GM's did with the Bolt.

My view, at least.

I have been saying for a long time that traditional auto makers are done. Kinda like this: "GM and Toyota are DONE". All the fanboys come around and say: How could they possibly be done, they sell millions of cars more every year than Tesla does!!! One of the reasons why the traditional automakers have been hesitating to "jump into the pool" is that they are very conservative, and doing it right will take a lot of money, a lot, a LOT. Think what it would take to build several Gigafactories and a world wide fast charging network. Anyone presenting that $ number to the GM and Toyota leaders would be laughed out of the room, and likely have been, hence the non-movement.

The thing is, at some point in time, Tesla is going to force all these dinosaurs to make the "big bet". They will either have to get in the game, or watch Tesla eat their lunch one category at a time. Watch what happens to GM, F and Toyota stock prices when the Tesla Pickup is unveiled, and then when the Model Y is revealed. When Tesla starts selling those in the quantity of the Model 3, the game is over unless the dinosaurs decided to make the "big bet".

And then concerning the "big bet", and this is the most beautiful aspect of the whole scenario... Once they realize they have to make the big bet, they will be following in Tesla's footsteps, and trying to play catch up. Instead of it simply being a long costly marathon like it would have been if they started a few years ago when Tesla did, playing catch up to Tesla is never going to work due to the lead Tesla has, and the continuing innovation.

And when they finally realize that they have to make the big bet, if it doesn't work out, then they will really be "done". I think they are going to lose the big bet because they F****D it up so many times already. GM with the EV-1 and now the Bolt, and Toyota with the Mirai. These companies have proven that they lack the ability to "think things through", as the prior quoted post also shows, even when someone else is showing them exactly what they need to do.

Tesla is going to be cherry picking a whole lot more factories for pennies on the $, just like they did Nummi. And the next time the grinding stone of capitalism crushes the dinosaurs, the Congress Critters will not be picking up the pieces like the last time.

Fire up the popcorn popper and just enjoy the carnage. It's going to make Game of Thrones look like a children's playground at recess. The first showing starts this Friday at 9:00pm. ;)

RT
 
I am not sure this is the right place to ask this question, but here it goes. Hypothetically lets say solid state batteries become viable and better batteries than lithium ion batteries for electric cars in 5 years. How likely do you think that Tesla would be leapfrogged, in this scenario, by another automotive company who is able to make their first gigafactories solid state and are thus not tied to an older lithium ion battery produced by older gigafactories?

Elon has pointed out, anybody with a major new battery tech is going to go to Tesla first. About the only company that wouldn't would be if another car company did it, but there are no other car companies putting much R&D into battery chemistry. They all rely on their suppliers to do that. Tesla is the largest user of batteries in the world by a big margin, anybody who wanted to make the fastest buck from their new tech would be a fool not to give Tesla first right of refusal.

Unlike other car companies, Tesla is also doing their own research on battery tech and they are probably working very closely with Panasonic. Tesla is very up on the cutting edge of battery research and they are probably reproducing everything being done in labs with any public awareness. Someone would have to be working on practically a black ops project not to have at least some visibility to the rest of the battery research world.

Developing a new battery chemistry is tough though. Solid state shows the most promise of anything out there now, but there needs to be a lot of testing before its ready for production. It's estimated battery tech takes 10 years between discovery to becoming available to the consumer.

Energy density doesn't have to get up to the level of gasoline to destroy the market for ICE. Because EVs are more than 3X more efficient than ICE, if they get within 1/3 the energy density of ICE, they will have the same range as an ICE with the same space used for fuel. Batteries don't even need to get that dense before they start challenging ICE on range. The Model S/X has 96 gallons of space dedicated to the battery pack and the cars are plenty roomy in large part because the motors are so small. The total space used by fuel and drive train is about the same as an ICE now.

Just double the energy density of today's batteries and you have a 600 mile EV. I believe the estimate is solid state cells will be about 3X the density of the best Li-ion cells initially.

It isn't guaranteed that the next big breakthrough in battery tech will make it into Teslas first, but that would be the way to bet. If they aren't first, they will probably be close to first and probably be the top volume producer shortly after introduction.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: mikevbf
They have released another article, this time Japanese only (the previous one from one local newspaper got translated by Reuters and then all the national newspapers covered the same story) in Nature Energy.
次世代電池を牽引する、全固体電池開発

This includes an interview with the actual developer of the solid state battery, and how it works and some remaining issues to be resolved until mass production. It seems apparent that this technology is in the lab stage, but it looks promising. Hope it is.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: SwTslaGrl
What kind of charging would be needed to fill up a large KW hour battery!! So lets say the density is 3x what we see today. I would assume they would use that extra density as space and weight saving. So a conservative battery would 150kw in size. To charge that in 20 minutes?? 150kwh at a 3c charge rate would charge that in twenty minutes at 450kw at 240 volts DC at a whopping 1875amps!!
 
What kind of charging would be needed to fill up a large KW hour battery!! So lets say the density is 3x what we see today. I would assume they would use that extra density as space and weight saving. So a conservative battery would 150kw in size. To charge that in 20 minutes?? 150kwh at a 3c charge rate would charge that in twenty minutes at 450kw at 240 volts DC at a whopping 1875amps!!

Why 240V? Current EVs are mostly 400V, and the fairly near future looks to be 800V cars - which would only need ~560A for your 450kW - and the Superchargers already do 330A or more at peak.
 
...
Unlike other car companies, Tesla is also doing their own research on battery tech and they are probably working very closely with Panasonic. ...

General Motors operates a 85,000 sqft US-based dedicated battery laboratory which began operation in 2009. However, GM has been working with modern battery development since the 1960's in the Advanced Propulsion group. If you've visited the moon lately, you can see some of the production cars there.
There is also a battery lab in Germany and China owned and operated by GM. Half of the engineers and scientists at GM Global Propulsion Systems (née GM Powertrain) work on electrification and alternative fuels at this point. The other half works on ICE.

So perhaps 'unlike some car companies' would be more accurate.
 
Also, Supercharger V3 is, according to Elon, more than 350kW.

They look to be transitioning to battery buffered superchargers, which is great for the grid and makes them easier to install in more remote locations. You could put one in the middle of Canyonlands where it may be visited by 1 EV a week and power it with a 7m² solar panel, if you really wanted to ;)
 
What kind of charging would be needed to fill up a large KW hour battery!! So lets say the density is 3x what we see today. I would assume they would use that extra density as space and weight saving. So a conservative battery would 150kw in size. To charge that in 20 minutes?? 150kwh at a 3c charge rate would charge that in twenty minutes at 450kw at 240 volts DC at a whopping 1875amps!!

I think even at "today's" charge rate of ~150 kW if the battery could charge from empty to full with no tapering and low cooling overhead the customer would get a stark benefit. Picking up nearly 40 kWh (~140 miles) in fifteen minutes regardless of current SOC would open up BEVs to a lot more customers. It would also increase the vehicle throughput at L3 stations.

Such a charging ability would bring BEV usability to the point where most customers without a single family home could use L1 outlets in a parking space for the bulk of their needs with a fifteen minute L3 top-up sufficient for the other end of the histogram.
 
The whole "they're giant auto manufacturers, they could take over the EV market with their eyes closed" attitude has demonstrably not played out. The reality is that there is no magic to being a "giant automaker". Any startup can hire away people with decades of experience; if anything, big automakers are saddled with outdated infrastructure and production models. The only thing that they usually have going for them against upstarts is capital. But given that Tesla has a market value on par with a major automaker, they don't even have that.

The biggest problem is that they don't even seem to understand what they're doing wrong. They think that you can make any old EV, put it on the market, and so long as you have some "current industry standard range and performance" and subsidize the price down to some "current industry standard price", you'll have a winner. Which of course it doesn't work that way at all. EV customers want charging infrastructure and rapid charging. EV customers want innovation in multiple aspects of the vehicle. EV customers don't want something that looks like an ordinary ICE budget sedan or a boxfish-on-wheels. They don't want to buy from a company that they don't think is actually dedicated to EVs but is instead doing it for a combination of PR purposes and CAFE standards/EV credits.

Just the way that they design these things shows that they don't understand anything at all. Both the Leaf and the Bolt have a drag coefficient of 0.32, which isn't even good for a regular ICE sedan; for an EV that's an abomination - all because they wanted some particular, ridiculous style and they always let their terrible stylists have first dibs at design, with their aero people only doing tweaks. "No problem," they think, "We'll just put in bigger battery packs and subsidize the vehicle so people buy it." And that right there shows that they don't actually have a belief that the time for EVs is now. They see them as some "maybe some day but now they're just a little PR project that we could kill off if the winds change" side project to their main ICE business. And that's really how they look at everything, not just EVs - it's always "business as usual, even if you have a glaring problem staring you in the face". One of my pet peeves is how massive and expensive they've let wiring harnesses get because for decades they never saw fit to change their design philosophy from "Need a new piece of functionality? Wire in yet another box from yet another OEM and grow your alternator to handle the drain!" to "Centralize, multifuctional hardware, eliminate redundancy and simplify."

Everything about Tesla shows that they actually believe in EVs, believe in radical change to the industry, and are rapidly turning this belief into reality.

Until I see any signs that any of the traditional major automakers "get it", I see no hope for them in the long term. The notion that they're just going to jump in when the water gets warm, without having built up charging infrastructure, without having invested vast sums in their own battery technology (thinking they'll just off-the-shelf it), without having streamlined their manufacturing processes, without having collected reams of consumer data, without having to innovate, without having ever done anything to earn their potential customers' loyalty... their attempts to jump in will go as badly as GM's did with the Bolt.

My view, at least.


Exactly. And some of them, the Japanese makers in particular, move very slowly and methodically. Toyotas and Hondas are bulletproof, in part, because they don't attempt to lead the market in technology. They very slowly and incrementally improve things and take no risks.
 
Better - and worse. Like most things in life, there are tradeoffs.

From my limited research on the subject, the main challenges with solid state cells so far seem to be cost related, beyond the technical aspects of making a viable electrolyte.

Here's a nice article on the various types:

https://www.androidauthority.com/lithium-ion-vs-solid-state-battery-726142/amp/


Related:
Watch Out Tesla! Toyota's Solid State Battery is Coming (TSLA)

also Ardroid link above is not active.