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TSLA Expected Rate of Return

What long-term rate of return do you expect of TSLA? Choose most suitable benchmark.

  • ~ 10%: SPY (SP500 Index) total annual return 10.61% 5-y, 13.84% 10-y

    Votes: 1 2.3%
  • ~ 20%: QQQ (Nasdaq Index) total annual return 19.33% 5-y, 20.45% 10-y

    Votes: 2 4.5%
  • ~ 30%: ARKK (ARK Innovation ETF) total annual return 29.17% 5-y, 26.77% from inception

    Votes: 18 40.9%
  • ~ 40%: TSLA (historical Tesla) total annual return 41.62% 5-y, 54.41% 10-y

    Votes: 23 52.3%

  • Total voters
    44
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Easier said than done @jhm. Can you name one company besides $TSLA that's a true disruptor and has potential to 10x or 100x over the coming decade? I literally don't know of any...
The solar industry has massive growth opportunity, could become 2/3 of the global energy supply. Electrolyzers also factor into this. So right now looking with the solar industry my top pick is SolarEdge. They are focused on inverters and othe power equipment. As solar modules and batteries come down in price, it creates more demand for inverters. Electrolyzers also need inverters. I want to find a top electrozer maker to invest in. I've been looking at Nel.

I believe hydrogen generation via electrolysis is truly disruptive to natural gas, fossil generation, and long-term power storage. When trying to size up how much storage a 100% fossil free grid requires, electrolyzers are a wild card potentially limiting the quantity of batteries needed.

The thing about decarbonization is that will take several decades to replace fossil fuels. So there is huge potential for decades of high rates of growth. So there are lots of opportunities to find innovators that can make critical contributions.
 
There seems to be a boatload of EV start-ups out there that are so overhyped that one wonders if they really expect to produce a successful product, or if they're just trying to attract investors with big promises now that Tesla has shown what EVs can do.

Discerning which are the real potential disruptors, which are the crackpots, and which are the outright cons is no trivial matter. And most start-ups go bust even if their ideas were sound.

Consider EEStor. I thought it was a con from the very start. But they convinced a lot of people to give them money, and the Zenn car company, which was making very nice little cars, went bust because they fell for it and gave EEStor a bucketload of money.
I think Proterra is the real thing. Looking forward to it going public.
 
Thanks for the tip. I've got a sliver of the portfolio in a real estate REIT (company is Fundrise) that's been doing exactly what I hoped it would. That dividend is decent, but I like the idea of a bit more diversification as long as it's genuinely uncorrelated (well - low correlation anyway), and I like the idea of investments that directly support and are focused on renewable energy.
The thing about renewable energy is that it mostly requires a bunch of upfront capital and then delivers bond-like returns over the useful life of the asset. So this is a natural income producing asset class.

I've started doing a little investing in HASI to get a feel for how to do renewable income investing...well in advance of retirement.
 
The solar industry has massive growth opportunity, could become 2/3 of the global energy supply. Electrolyzers also factor into this. So right now looking with the solar industry my top pick is SolarEdge. They are focused on inverters and othe power equipment. As solar modules and batteries come down in price, it creates more demand for inverters. Electrolyzers also need inverters. I want to find a top electrozer maker to invest in. I've been looking at Nel.

I believe hydrogen generation via electrolysis is truly disruptive to natural gas, fossil generation, and long-term power storage. When trying to size up how much storage a 100% fossil free grid requires, electrolyzers are a wild card potentially limiting the quantity of batteries needed.

The thing about decarbonization is that will take several decades to replace fossil fuels. So there is huge potential for decades of high rates of growth. So there are lots of opportunities to find innovators that can make critical contributions.

Where were you with $SEDG 4 months ago? lol Would have loved to pick it up below $100.... What are you currently investing it? What are your thoughts on First Solar?

I am not super knowledgable about the solar industry, I should probably learn some more stuff.
 
Okay Q2 is out of the way... The expected happened... GAAP profitability, S&P inclusion.... Now... we wait...
When are we going to go long $TSLA? Today's price is 21% implied discount on a 1.5T 2028 valuation.... My probabilistic model (based on $750B, $1T, $1.5T valuations) is showing a 12% discount. BLEH why would I buy $TSLA for 12% yearly growth?
This is pretty much why I started this thread. It's really exciting to see the stock price soar like this. Expectations for S&P inclusions are sky high too. But at some point the euphoria wears off, and people will be like, "okay, now what?" Even if Tesla rises another 20% to $2000 over the next 12 months, it could feel like a massive disappointment after having risen from $221 in the preceding 12 months. Pschologically we could be headed for a big mood crash.

I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer. I hope longs are mentally prepared for market mood swings.
 
This is pretty much why I started this thread. It's really exciting to see the stock price soar like this. Expectations for S&P inclusions are sky high too. But at some point the euphoria wears off, and people will be like, "okay, now what?" Even if Tesla rises another 20% to $2000 over the next 12 months, it could feel like a massive disappointment after having risen from $221 in the preceding 12 months. Pschologically we could be headed for a big mood crash.

I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer. I hope longs are mentally prepared for market mood swings.

Agreed... I'm waiting for the Robinhooders to move on to the next meme and let this consolidate before adding more.
 
Where were you with $SEDG 4 months ago? lol Would have loved to pick it up below $100.... What are you currently investing it? What are your thoughts on First Solar?

I am not super knowledgable about the solar industry, I should probably learn some more stuff.
SEDG is my second largest position. I've been accumulating it for several year. Up until recently, it was the better performer for me than Tesla. Years ago I was in First Solar and other module makers. I have generally lost interest in module makers. It has suffered from brutally low prices for for commodity panels. I was hoping that higher efficiency modules would take off (I still have some SPWR), but lower cost per Watt seems to beat higher Watts per square meter. What's fascinating here is that not all segments of the solar supply chain is going to be profitable enough to pay off inspite of massive volume growth. When some components become super cheap, it can stimulate demand for other components supporting higher margins. Right now the trend in solar systems is to match a high ratio of solar modules (DC) to inverter and interchange capacity (AC). Essentially they are oversupplying inverters to smooth out power generation through the day. At the edges, power prices are higher and module capacity is cheap. Batteries will also soak up the surplus DC power. But at the heart is the inverter. Systems are designed to optimize the utilization of the inverter. If you store most of the solar DC power directly to battery. Then the same inverter can serve both the solar module and the battery. Thus, an inverter could be utilized at a 50% to 100% capacity factor. "Baseload" (around the clock) solar is coming. Both batteries and inverters are winning components in this development, thanks to super cheap modules.
 
* Apple is actually a pretty interesting gut check even though it's in somewhat different industries (although given the scalability of software, I'd argue not as different as it appears on first glance). Today, in its non-hyper growth phase, it's being valued at ~30x TTM earnings
I was long on Apple for many years. The share price in 2008 was (adjusted for the later 7 to 1 split) was $17, today it's $390. That's 2300 percent 23x. Today Tesla is $1600, with the same growth Tesla late 2032 would be $36,000 a share. So I don't think EPS (earnings per share) applies to the current situation. Apple for years was a bargain, trading at 17x earnings (I think. Whatever it was it was very low for tech). All that time the iPhone was conquering the world. (And btw from 2008 through about 2012 the same business press that's idiotic now kept saying, "But Apple has the 35% of the high priced American smart phone market - where can they go? how can they possibly increase sales?? (A lot of us still had Finnish Nokias in our pockets this whole time. If we can buy Finnish phones, can't the Japanese and the Europeans buy iPhones?? For about three years I wondered if I'd made a serious mistake, over looked something....) I bought Apple's future and I've just invested in Tesla's future.
I think current Tesla value is actually based on answering the question: What would you pay today for a $10,000/share stock in 2025?
And if the current price was just FOMO (Fear of missing out), then it would be going up and down in huge swings. That little bit of seesawing last week wasn't that.
My long experience with Apple compared with Tesla this year and going forward, is that Tesla being vertically integrated, being in an essential business (vehicles), being far ahead of every competitor and being less expensive to operate? It's Apple^2 (squared).
What basic economic theory would say is that Tesla it very expensive now, so there must be bargains to be picked up that could make you as much money. I think this is basic Benjamin Graham/Warren Buffett. (Which I thought I was following when I invested in Apple. I wasn't. I made a bit of a (lucky) mistake). I think this year, nothing has gained as much as Tesla, the consistent price over the past couple of months more and more indicates to me that you could buy Tesla at $1600, go on vacation check it next year and there is no way you wouldn't have made money. But.... month to month- you can't predict. Five years? Tesla will be worth at least 3x I have no doubt.
I might be right, I might be a lunatic. This isn't my first rodeo; of course your mileage equivalent may vary.
 
Just took a quick look at $SEDG and now I'm having FOMO :p
@jhm what's your BFPT on $SEDG?
Ha. You know, I don't have one. I'm also starting to pick up some Enphase. ENPH used to dominate the inverter market for rooftop solar. Then SEDG cut in with better technology and surpassed ENPH in market cap. Emphases seems to be catching back up. The thing that would worry me is if these two got into a pricing war with each other. But they seem more oriented to compete on technology. Integration with batteries is still an area for innovation. So that is positive for continuing to advance distributed solar without destroying gross margins. I'm not sure which will dominate in the years to come, though I'm partial to SEDG for innivation chops. Both are good competitors, so I'm buying both.

Oh yeah, SolarEdge is developing a new business in EV power components. So if you want to jump on the EV craze, SEDG could be your ticket.

Hmm, I recall that a fee years ago SolarEdge was developing a digital inverter, printed circuit boards, that were substantially lighter (less copper and magnets). I wondering if there is much potential in developing this for an EV. We'll see.
 
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Benchmark Definition

This article is helpful for understanding the concept of a benchmark. It is simply a refence portfolio that one may use for comparison on go forward basis.

BTW, I think the market is way overloaded with passive investing in index funds. This was grounded intellectually in the efficient market hypothesis and CAPM. It was believed that one could not reliably do better on a risk-adjusted basis than the "market portfolio." This devalued active investment and trained a large segment of investors that they could do no better than hold a cheap index fund.

In the US, the SP500 became privileged as the "market portfolio." But as any Tesla investor knows the SP500 applies specific filters to exclude some of the best performing stocks. The fact that QQQ has handily beaten SPY for the last 10 years should challenge the beliefs that undergird passive index fund investing. It should not be possible under EMH and CAPM. And specifically under CAPM, we ought to be able to explain this difference in performance based on beta. Well, according to my Merrill-Lynch sources, SPY has a beta of 0.97, while QQQ has a beta of 0.95. As far as CAPM is concerned these two portfolio have about the same risk. So this does not explain why for the past 5 years QQQ has had about double the return of SPY. If SP500 really was the theoretically correct "market portfolio," this should not be happening.

So what explains the difference? For one, Tesla (and other growing stocks) has been excluded from SPY while included in QQQ. If we look at actively managed ARKK, it has a beta of 1.13. So its risk level (per CAPM) is only slightly elevated relative to QQQ and SPY. And yet it's 5-year performance was about 10% and 18% points above the two respective benchmarks. This should not be happening if you believe the passive investment orthodoxy. But we see that it does happen because of how stocks like Tesla get excluded or weighted in these indexes. ARKK has been overweighted in Tesla and other innovative companies, this is the point of active management.

All this become much easier to understand if we reject the Efficient Market Hypothesis. In my view the market has systemically undervalued disruptive innovators like Tesla. The flipside is that the market has systemically overvalued companies on the wrong side of disruptive innovation. Fossil fuel related industries (oil&gas, auto) are subject to disruption that Tesla thrives on. The SP500 is much more exposed to these fossil-based industries. Notably oil & gas has underperformed the SP500 for a good number of years, thus dragging performance of SPY down especially over the last 5 years.

Obviously, one can have lengthy discussions about which stocks are boosting the indexes or driving them down. But I'd like to argue that the EMH is especially unreliable specifically where disruptive innovation is at play. As we have all witnessed with the Covid-19 pandemic the novelty of a pathogen poses risks that are very hard to navigate. As we learn more about Covid-19, treatments become more effective, preventative strategies become more efficient. We may even have a vaccine eventually. As the novelty wears off, society learns how best to adapt to it. EMH has to do with how quickly the market can react to information. The novelty of innovative technology is what makes it so disruptive. The market may well react quickly to information about a novel technology, but that does mean that it can accurately interpret that information or that potentially impacted businesses know how to adapt to the novel tech. It is common for a disrupted industry to underestimate just how quickly or perniciously a novel tech will impact them. Automakers still think they have an abundance of time to keep turning a profit on ICE. The oil industry still thinks peak oil demand is more than a decade away. Industry insiders are likely to be overconfident in how they appraise the risks, and many investors are likely to buy into beliefs of leaders in mature industries. So the whole set up leads to a systematic overestimation of the value and durability of BAU in the face of disruptive change, even as there is systemic undervaluation of potentially disruptive innovators. On a daily basis, Tesla investor battle the forces of FUD. Sadly, an efficient market can be moved as much by misinformation as from sound information. This is because the interpretive lens of the market is not yet familiar enough with the disruptive innovators to know how to filter out noise from reliable signal. The novelty of Tesla and its many technologies is a big part of what FUD is able to exploit. For example, one can think that EVs are inferior in all sorts of ways, and a whole genre of FUD plays on this. But when one actually has experience driving a Tesla, it can radically transform that person's outlook on the viability and attractiveness of EVs. The "EVs are inferior" FUD loses effectiveness. I would say the person who has actually driven a Tesla is in a much better position to value an investment in Tesla accurately. In terms of EMH, the market is reacting to information in real time, but I would suggest that the interpretation of that information changes as investors gain experience, especially direct personal experience, with a novel technology.

For another example, Tesla share price used to drop sharply with every report of a fire. The market was very efficient at reacting quickly to this information, but it was lousy at interpreting the significance of such reports. The novelty of EV battery fires led traders to think that such events signaled a much lower value for Tesla. Now, the market shrugs off such a report because it can now interpret such an event as having no materiality to the value of Tesla. The double standard was frustrating. ICE vehicles have many fires everyday, but this has no impact on legacy automakers. The difference in interpretation had everything to do with the novelty of li-ion battery powered vehicles.

So my thesis is that EMH does not rule out the difficulty market participants have in interprting information particularly as it pertains to novel technology and disruptive innovation. Thus, innovation and disrupted industries can be systemically mispriced. This is why QQQ can regularly outperform SPY. Also the active investment practices of ARK Invest and many others who invest single name disruptive innovators like Tesla can outperform even QQQ. In short, innovation disrupts even passive investing.

Late to the party but I think there's an important distinction that isn't accounted for. For things like for example which of the Facebook/MySpace/Twitter/etc. contenders is going to come out as a dominant player (think about cryptocurrency, which ones to get into?). Investing into disruptive innovators involves being able to pick a winner, and usually that would take specialized knowledge on what to look for, you're basically in the shoes of a venture capitalist. Spreading bets among many contenders will not yield a particularly outsized return. Good example with the vaccines actually, who do you bet on to both come up with a working one quickly and make a lot of it with a good profit? I don't have any specialized/insider knowledge of these things so my choice would be to either bet on all of them or pick one or few and hope for the best.

Tesla is unique in that even for a relative neophyte it is pretty clear there's no real competition and that the fruit is hanging pretty low on a tree ready to get picked. All you need to really have is the ability to look at things without a big bias.

So I think the winning formula is a bit more nuanced: you gotta get in on the innovators at the right time, before the mass market realized who is the winner, and right when a more sophisticated view can produce high confidence prediction on who that is. This also means that one would have to be willing to sit in cash if no such options are available at the moment.
 
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Late to the party but I think there's an important distinction that isn't accounted for. For things like for example which of the Facebook/MySpace/Twitter/etc. contenders is going to come out as a dominant player (think about cryptocurrency, which ones to get into?). Investing into disruptive innovators involves being able to pick a winner, and usually that would take specialized knowledge on what to look for, you're basically in the shoes of a venture capitalist. Spreading bets among many contenders will not yield a particularly outsized return. Good example with the vaccines actually, who do you bet on to both come up with a working one quickly and make a lot of it with a good profit? I don't have any specialized/insider knowledge of these things so my choice would be to either bet on all of them or pick one or few and hope for the best.

Tesla is unique in that even for a relative neophyte it is pretty clear there's no real competition and that the fruit is hanging pretty low on a tree ready to get picked. All you need to really have is the ability to look at things without a big bias.

So I think the winning formula is a bit more nuanced: you gotta get in on the innovators at the right time, before the mass market realized who is the winner, and right when a more sophisticated view can produce high confidence prediction on who that is. This also means that one would have to be willing to sit in cash if no such options are available at the moment.
Yep. I agree.

Let me be clear, investing in disruotive innovation is not easy. Just the opposite, innovation is frequently mispriced because it is hard to value. It's hard to pick the winners at the right time.

One big advantage many of us have enjoyed investing in Tesla is that there is a substantial community of investors and enthusiasts who have actively parsed and discussed what this company is doing. For many of us, it has been quite an education to learn how this company work and how to interpret its vision. In many ways the biggest difference between longs and shorts is that longs really try to understand the full vision and how all the peices work together. Shorts are often find a few objectionable features and then fixate on that. For example, today many shorts are bellowing about regulatory credits. Sure, thats the amount of revenue that pushed Tesla into the black, but so what? What are these credits in the larger scheme of the company? Sure it is 7% of revenue this quarter. But Tesla has focused on a technology that most elegantly avoids the regulatory costs of ICE vehicles and has positioned itself to benefit from solving environmental issues. This is a strategic choice, and that choice is bearing fruit. Nevertheless, Tesla has never measured its own growth in terms of reg credit sales. In particular, non-GAAP profitability excludes this. Tesla is very clear treat revenue from credits as a special, non-sustainable thing. So Tesla takes a very responsible and nuanced view of this, while critics wish simply to delegitimize these proper GAAP profits as if Tesla was trying to trick people. Moreove, the missed that this situation is a consequence of competitors failing to compete with Tesla in the EV market. This year Tesla has a 18% share of the global EV market, and this entitles Tesla to a substantial share of regulatory credits. Competitors will have to build more EVs and fewer ICE if they would like to profit from selling reg credits too.

I digress. The point is that in community we are able understand Tesla better, more holistically. That's what gives us an edge in knowing how to invest in it. So when we look at other potential disruptors, we need to engage more deeply in understanding what they are doing and how the peices fit together. Particularly if there is a counterintuitive vision at work, we may need to reorient our own thinking to understand who that vision really works. If we can't connect to that vision, we may underestimate the opportunity. On the other hand, if that vision is half-baked, incomplete or self-defeating, a shallow glance might not reveal the gaps to us. We can overestimate the opportunity. For example, I've looked closely enough at Nikola to know that they are understating the capex needed to deliver hydrogen by a factor of 6 or more. (They also fundamentally misunderstand what battery electric vehicles can do. ) Underestimating capex is a serious problem because their growth will be dependent on fresh capital to build out their fueling network. This makes them very vulnerable to short attacks targeting access to credit. Am I missing some bigger picture thing that gets passed these problems? Perhaps, but more worrisome is the Nikola's leadership seems unaware of basic financial misconceptions that lead them to downplay infrastructure capex per truck. This is a big problem if management does not know their own plans are half-baked. So I won't be investing long or short.

I think ARK Invest has the right approach to having multidisciplinary teams that investigate an investment from many different angles.
 
Looks like we're past the bump. Does anybody seriously think TSLA will hit 1,600 again this year? As expected I made (mostly) all the wrong decisions. I sold a few shares but not nearly as many as I wanted to while it was high. I suspect that you could make a lot of money by monitoring my expectations and investing for the opposite. :( For a reasonable fee I am willing to make daily predictions which I will guarantee to be wrong. :confused:
 
For example, I've looked closely enough at Nikola to know that they are understating the capex needed to deliver hydrogen by a factor of 6 or more. (They also fundamentally misunderstand what battery electric vehicles can do. ) Underestimating capex is a serious problem because their growth will be dependent on fresh capital to build out their fueling network. This makes them very vulnerable to short attacks targeting access to credit. Am I missing some bigger picture thing that gets passed these problems? Perhaps, but more worrisome is the Nikola's leadership seems unaware of basic financial misconceptions that lead them to downplay infrastructure capex per truck. This is a big problem if management does not know their own plans are half-baked. So I won't be investing long or short.

Interesting you mention $NKLA... Is there a price at which this speculative play becomes worthwhile? I could see myself throwing some money their way at a $5B valuation. Probably will go to 0, but better than a weekly OTM lotto call/put.
 
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Ha. You know, I don't have one. I'm also starting to pick up some Enphase. ENPH used to dominate the inverter market for rooftop solar. Then SEDG cut in with better technology and surpassed ENPH in market cap. Emphases seems to be catching back up. The thing that would worry me is if these two got into a pricing war with each other. But they seem more oriented to compete on technology. Integration with batteries is still an area for innovation. So that is positive for continuing to advance distributed solar without destroying gross margins. I'm not sure which will dominate in the years to come, though I'm partial to SEDG for innivation chops. Both are good competitors, so I'm buying both.

Oh yeah, SolarEdge is developing a new business in EV power components. So if you want to jump on the EV craze, SEDG could be your ticket.

Hmm, I recall that a fee years ago SolarEdge was developing a digital inverter, printed circuit boards, that were substantially lighter (less copper and magnets). I wondering if there is much potential in developing this for an EV. We'll see.

Yes, I remember when you and a few others on these forms invested in FSLR, SCTY, JKS, and some other solar names.... I never did bother researching the solar business back then because I felt like the technology just wasn't ready. I think almost a decade later, we might be finally in a position where solar makes more sense. However, finding someone that has a competitive edge against TSLA, or doesn't directly compete is key.

That being said, I'd love to hear more about your thoughts behind $ENPH and/or $SEDG. If you have any reading material/posts etc. please send them my way. I want to spend the weekend reading up on this, I think there might be something there (as long as you are willing to stomach another 5 years of bleh returns).
 
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Interesting you mention $NKLA... Is there a price at which this speculative play becomes worthwhile? I could see myself throwing some money their way at a $5B valuation. Probably will go to 0, but better than a weekly OTM lotto call/put.
Oh, man. Check out some of my recent thought in this post:
Shorting Oil, Hedging Tesla

So far the business model looks dangerously capital intensive. Moreover, they will need to suck in capital with every truck they make. When growth is dependent on access to capital, the likes of Jim Chanos can poison access to capital and destroy a company.

I think the hope for survival is that as they get into the market, they realize that BEVs are easier to sell and require significantly less capex per sale. Then they could scrap the whole hydrogen angle and just focus on being a BEV maker. They just are far enough along to know the hard way that hydrogen is a dead end. They are going to burn through massive capital learning this lesson the hard way.

I would not invest in Nikola until they swear off their hydrogen ambition. I do believe there is plenty of room for Nikola as a BEV maker.
 
Looks like we're past the bump. Does anybody seriously think TSLA will hit 1,600 again this year? As expected I made (mostly) all the wrong decisions. I sold a few shares but not nearly as many as I wanted to while it was high. I suspect that you could make a lot of money by monitoring my expectations and investing for the opposite. :( For a reasonable fee I am willing to make daily predictions which I will guarantee to be wrong. :confused:
If its any consolation, I sold off my covered calls several days ago at pretty high cost. It compelled me sell off a bunch of shares that I had carefully acquired over many years. Not fun.

But I'm actually feeling better now that the share price has pulled back a bit. At higher prices, I find myself wrestling with whether to sell a few shares or write covered calls. At lower prices, I am more confident that I just want to hold my shares for a very long time. At even lower prices, say below $1000, I may even want to accumulate more.

This actually illustrates how I internalize my internalized rate of return. I do expect TSLA to hit about $5000 in 2025. I was contemplating selling a few shares at $1800, would consider buying shares at $1000 and am pretty happy to hold at $1400. These correspond to the following rates: sell maybe at 23%, happy to hold at 29%, buy maybe at 38%. For my the the problem with the price being near $1600 was that I could not gain clarity or comfort about selling or just holding on. It was not a good place for me to navigate closing covered calls. It's good to know where one is most comfortable or uncomfortable making a choice.