Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Being short/bear a stock actively is a difficult mental state to break out of. I think there are two main categories of shorts.

"Type I" shorts are the 'genuine believers', who are genuinely convinced that:
  • Elon is a fraud and the Antichrist reborn, who only wanted to go to that Thai cave to drown little kids.
  • Tesla is a zero, a nil, a nada, and that in fact NASDAQ should introduce the concept of negative prices so that their inevitably successful short position can run all the way to -$100 per share.
  • That the Tesla quarterly statements are obviously manufactured, that this is a second Enron and Theranos, where Enron hero Jim Chanos has unmasked a level of fraud for the history books.
  • (Bonus: EVs are an expensive fad for rich people who want to kill the sweet smell of gasoline. That gasoline and its exhaust is carcinogen is just as much of an un-American lie of the tree-huggers as this global warming nonsense which was only concocted to line the pockets of Al Gore.)
  • I.e. they are shorting Tesla because they hate Elon and hate the change Tesla stands for.
These "Type I" shorts are only going to dig in their heels.

Then there's "Type II" shorts:
  • They are reasonably good investors and have read plenty of quarterly statements and made some good investment decisions in the past. They consider themselves to be rational investors.
  • They really suck at shorting high-tech firms though, and have trouble valuing hyper-growth companies that combine new disruptive technologies with a significant first-mover advantage - like Tesla does.
  • To them Tesla is 90% of what the past 8 years of their quarterly statements tell them: a big, big mess and an overvalued company in big liquidity trouble. They only see a negative net working capital, awful gross margins, ridiculously high R&D spending and ignore the intangibles potentially worth trillions (literally), such as automotive or the new high-tech EV market that could easily be 2-3 times the size of the automotive market - because they are not on the balance sheet.
  • I.e. they are shorting Tesla because of the negative picture their financials paint, they believe that Tesla is a hype stock and a bubble of a seriously overvalued company which needs to trim its stock price - and why not earn money while the trimming is done.
Then there's also "Type III" shorts:
  • Top people of New York hedge funds, moving billions of dollars. Top education, very good grasp on how the markets work, very good access to the markets, and a mostly cynical view of all things life.
  • Most of them have probably never performed honest work in their lives and have no trouble shorting an American manufacturing company if they think they can make a buck. They never use mass transport (daily helicopter transport is so much less suspect to traffic jams thank you very much) and are rarely exposed to the toxic air of inner cities either, so the 'green' and planet saving aspects of EVs don't connect with them. They obviously also don't see all that many Teslas.
  • These people (correctly) identified Solar City and then Tesla as a potential target of an attack against their sources of financing: both companies were/are 'leveraged' to a great degree with exposure to constant sources of financing, roll-over of debt and in the case of Solar City the constant flow of new short term funding backed by their long term loans and leases. If funding dries up then stock price crashes.
  • These guys, possibly in coordination, initiated tens of millions worth of TSLA shorts originally done against SCTY but now inherited by Tesla.
  • These guys have both media contacts and extensive contacts all around the financial world: analysts, rating agencies, you name it. They know how to work the news against Tesla and are probably not shy to perform a dirty trick or two - they don't care if it's illegal as long as it does not result in a prison sentence.
Of the ~34 million shares short position on TSLA I believe most are owned by "Type III" shorts: well over 20 million I believe. A couple of million (up to 5) are owned by "Type I" shorts, mostly through small retail positions - the remaining 5-10 million by "Type II" shorts.


Here's how these categories of shorts act usually:
  • "Type I" shorts are the loudest and probably make up 90% of the Twitter noise. They actually have the smallest short position in total.
  • "Type II" shorts try to lend credibility to "Type I" shorts.
  • "Type III" shorts are the most silent but also the most dangerous ones: not just due the high stake they have, but also due to the asymmetrically large influence they have on sentiment, through their media and financial world contacts.
Mark Spiegel is IMHO a Type-III wannabee who is in reality Type-I. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the funds in his 'hedge fund' originated from Type-III shorts though - in exchange for the media noise he is generating.



To me the following looks probable:
  • "Type-I" shorts will be forced out of their (often over-leveraged) positions once the price breaks through $390-ish price levels. The 'forcing' will be done by their brokers as their margin levels go negative. That will give a nice little pop to the breakout. (Think TT007 but in inverse.)
  • "Type-II" shorts are probably not over-leveraged but they are going to take losses. Q2 financials are technically still looking pretty awful to an old-fashioned accountant, so I can see a fair number of them 'holding' their short positions for the time being. Also, higher price levels should convince them that Tesla is even more overvalued, which is a really bad state of mind to be in, and which can result in pretty bad investment decisions. They'll cover on Q3, or maybe even on early October delivery numbers.
  • "Type-III" shorts are possibly in a 'bear trap' already (average SCTY shorting price levels are $240-$260? Then there's 2 years of short interest - their true break-even price might be as low as $200 at this point - and then they missed one of the biggest bull markets of recent memory ...), and they'll be in even more of a trap over $350. They will try everything in their power. I'm genuinely curious what they'll do once the end of quarter mark-to-market window dressing fails before Q3: people will be expecting a positive surprise, so unless something negative happens to Tesla or to the global markets, I just cannot see a significant drop in the share price prior the quarterly report. Once that happens they might be forced by their own investors to cover, and that could be pretty disorganized, because each of the Type-III shorts is probably watching closely what the other big shorts are doing - if one runs for the door the others will try to go through first. I don't see them having the backing to hold out until Q4 though, unless they are managing their own personal funds, which most of them are not doing I think.
At least that's how I imagine the sociology of TSLA shorts - a lot of it is speculation and conjecture though.
I think this is a pretty good guess as to the make up of the short's.
After reading "the Divide" and also Jessy's thesis it makes sense.
The type III shorts will kill and dismember anyone who stops them from making more money so I expect the SP to be vulnerable for a time.

If Tesla can get to self funding then they will run and move to next opportunity to add to the billions they already have.
 
The stock was trading virtually horizontally after the early rise and fall back. I found the horizontal trading quite unusual too, but it seemed to fit a lower volume consolidation kind of day.

So I believe the horizontal trading early in the day was mostly 'compression' caused by significant breakouts and bull trading in NASDAQ and DOW futures pressing the price up, but someone suppressing that movement.

Significant down-legs of NASDAQ were fully allowed to have an effect though - until the price reached the daily and then the post-Q2-earnings low.

The end of the day was anything but that. As I understand it, there isn't much support under TSLA until $330ish, so my feeling was that this was an attempt to reverse the short term trend in an effort to create a significant dip.

Post-earnings low after the gap should at minimum be a minor support - and the price broke through that without a bounce, and that's pretty bearish that both triggered stops directly and brought in a lot of short term trading too I believe. Which was soaked up in the closing minute BTW., indicating the presence of significant buying power too.

Since the stock closed under the low of day from Friday, I think it is set up to potentially drop firmly this morning with the typical morning selling, assuming shorts have the funds/shares to do so. Short traders may also jump on this intraday drop below Friday's LOD. I've still got quite a few September calls that I was hoping to hang onto for another couple of weeks, but I'm concerned we could easily end up back around $330. On the other hand, if the morning dip today gets bought, this little dip could be negated.

So I'm not entirely convinced it's shorts who are playing these games. (But it could be the case.) In any case I agree that it's probably going to continue - as whatever strategy is being used it didn't seem to end yesterday.
 
I CAN'T KEEP UP, PLEASE HELP ME:
Tesla registered 1,965 new Model3 VINs. ~100% estimated to be dual motor. Highest VIN is 94894.
Source: Model 3 VINs on Twitter
Feels like we may break 100k in a week or two! Right now we are at 94k VINs so far. Sure, it does not equate to 100k produced already, but still should be a nice milestone.
 
Hi All,

Don't usually post in the investing section. I'm long since 2012 and intend to just keep holding until I'm ready to retire.

Thought I'd share something that makes me think long term Tesla has a very bright future.

We own a Model X and are about to take delivery of a Model 3. My wife is a 4th grade teacher and for the past year the Model X has been her daily driver to work. She's never really advertised to anyone but a couple co-workers that she drives the model X. Word spread and co-workers started asking about it and she gave a few rides here and there. Well, within a month or so, coming to school in the morning was like a red carpet event. Rumor spread and all the kids in the school soon knew. When she walks through the halls, it's like she's a rock star. Kids come up to her and start asking questions and gushing about Tesla. Mind you, this is elementary school. These are kids who are 6-7 years away from driving. I'm not sure where these kids are getting this enthusiasm for Tesla. I'm not sure if it comes from the parents or if it's due to their twitter/Youtube-centric lives. Either way, When is the last time you heard an elementary school student talking about what car they are going to buy when they grow up?
 
Picked up my new Tesla MS this Sunday at the Fremont Delivery Center.... This is my second, I picked up a MX last December... but the experience was dramatically different. First, delivery volume was 6-10x, delivery was outside, seemed like a small farmers market, no barista, just coffee and pretzels, probably over 60 Model 3 being delivered at 11:30. I took a good look at a P3D... I noticed that the cars were not very well detailed, having worked in Detroit at Masco, it was clear to me the detail guys in the back were in over their heads. The cars had been outdoors for at least a few weeks. Even my car indicated storage outside as there was a lot of dirt behind the door seals. Interior windows were not clean, wheels over sprayed with tire shine...the P3D had to be sent back, lots of buffing compound in the gaps and clearly present to the touch and eye. Overall, it is clear to me that a lot of M3's are getting delivered, Tesla needs to ramp up support... and lastly, each generation, ModelS, to ModelX, and now Model3 are increasingly sophisticated, from gaps to engineering... I wish I needed a third car...

I am long on TSLA. No advice, CopyRight, TM, do not distribute without written permission.
 
I appreciate and love reading this form and welcome anyone's thoughts about the market action stock price! Thank you @TrendTrader007 for your enthusiasm! I am in long term for the next 10 years, so I'm always up for power of positivity and optimism!!!

i seriously dont get why people get all up in arms about his enthusiasm. If someone, a new investor, is THAT naive that they blindly follow his lead and bet their entire savings without ANY research, then, well...a fool and his money are soon parted.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.