Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Tesla Model 3 on Canada news, positive coverage :)

Swarm of electric vehicles arrive in GTA

Watch the video, 76 year old bought the car without a test drive and loved it.

That's a great video and one can safely assume this type of reaction is pretty standard. I was a bit concerned with the chubby dude's palsy, should he be driving???

In any case, I hope our in-house bears watch it too, if only to encourage them to cover their positions before it's too late. The fact that people, old people even, were prepared to order this car, two years in advance, purely from seeing it on the web, that's unprecedented.
 
This example illustrates how Segment B's apparent profitability can improve only because of the increase in Segment A revenue.

Except that's doesn't resolve the issue I have at all. It's not about profitability but about the absolute size of the D&A component. I have difficulty seeing how that can be as low as $500M on a yearly basis for the Model 3. My reasoning is simple : the 3, when production is at volume, requires the majority of the buildings, the tooling and the equipment. Agree/not agree? If it requires the majority of all those items it will also require the majority of D&A. Agree/not agree? D&A will increase from here on out as new additional capability, equipments and buildings will be put in place to grow 3 volume. Agree/not agree? Currently D&A cash adjustements are over $1.5B already. Therefore, unless one of those steps is wrong, then shouldn't D&A on the model 3 be higher than $500M?
 
Except that's doesn't resolve the issue I have at all. It's not about profitability but about the absolute size of the D&A component. I have difficulty seeing how that can be as low as $500M on a yearly basis for the Model 3. My reasoning is simple : the 3, when production is at volume, requires the majority of the buildings, the tooling and the equipment. Agree/not agree? If it requires the majority of all those items it will also require the majority of D&A. Agree/not agree? D&A will increase from here on out as new additional capability, equipments and buildings will be put in place to grow 3 volume. Agree/not agree? Currently D&A cash adjustements are over $1.5B already. Therefore, unless one of those steps is wrong, then shouldn't D&A on the model 3 be higher than $500M?

Most of the D&A has already been previously carried by the S+X. So the absolute increase in total D&A vs. 2016 (for example) won’t be much more, but it will be spread over substantially more cars.
 
  • Like
Reactions: neroden
Except that's doesn't resolve the issue I have at all. It's not about profitability but about the absolute size of the D&A component. I have difficulty seeing how that can be as low as $500M on a yearly basis for the Model 3. My reasoning is simple : the 3, when production is at volume, requires the majority of the buildings, the tooling and the equipment. Agree/not agree? If it requires the majority of all those items it will also require the majority of D&A. Agree/not agree? D&A will increase from here on out as new additional capability, equipments and buildings will be put in place to grow 3 volume. Agree/not agree? Currently D&A cash adjustements are over $1.5B already. Therefore, unless one of those steps is wrong, then shouldn't D&A on the model 3 be higher than $500M?

Not agree, as I explained twice before: Deepak's "well below $2,000 per unit" likely only includes depreciation of machinery and tooling directly used in Model 3 production, while the total D&A of $1.5B includes depreciation and amortization of all tangible and intangible assets used in Model 3, Model S, Model X, Powerwall, Powerpack, Solar Panels/Roofs production, as well as buildings and assets that have nothing to do with production such as corporate buildings, sales/service/delivery centers, superchargers, and even the laptop of an admin at 61 Al-Ummal Street.

Note also @schonelucht that if an asset is used in production of more than one product, then the depreciation of that asset will be allocated among said products, most likely based on units and/or revenue by product.
 
Last edited:
That's a great video and one can safely assume this type of reaction is pretty standard. I was a bit concerned with the chubby dude's palsy, should he be driving???

In any case, I hope our in-house bears watch it too, if only to encourage them to cover their positions before it's too late. The fact that people, old people even, were prepared to order this car, two years in advance, purely from seeing it on the web, that's unprecedented.

I think Canada is really going to surprise everyone, including bulls.

I think Elon/Tesla purposely slowed down deliveries of S/X in the second quarter so he could pump out as much Model 3s as he could in June and deliver them in the US without crossing that 200k mark. The undelivered vehicles, will of course be in transit for next quarter. Sentiments likely turned last week, starting with consumer report OTA update, followed by the German’s estimated $28k cost for Model 3 (which gave me a huge signal of confidence); Inside EV numbers also looked solid (unlike last Q where sentiments started to turn negative). This time around I think both bears and bulls are in a predicament right now.

Bears: things are starting to turn for Tesla, they might just pull it off. Do I exit with my profits or do I want to play Russian Roulette?

Bulls: how big will this squeeze be, and when do I sell? Where can I dig up some more cash? FOMO.

Investors on the sideline: I have my cores In Tesla, I’m waiting for the 5k confirmation before making a move.

Opinion: advantage slightly leaning on bulls. Tesla changing the VIN count was meant to take everyone by surprise. Elon has done enough to warn both bulls and bears: “place your bets” folks.
 
Last edited:
This quote sure seems directly applicable to the massive FUD campaign against Tesla:

“The nature of the game as it is played is such that the public should realize that the truth cannot be told by the few who know.”
Jesse Livermore, Reminiscences of a Stock Operator

Which also suggests that when the FUD is viewed from the perspective of Jesse then there must be a group of very powerful people that have already conceded victory to Tesla and they are anxious to ride that victory once they collect enough shares at the bargain prices their FUD has created for them until the launch is inevitable. And it seems that Elon is itching to push the launch button. It should be a fun shareholders meeting. (Thanks to the many on this board that pointed the rest of us to Jesse Livermore)
 
One thing that might help the other automakers in the EV world.... it would at least get me to go look at an Ipace.... an announcement that they are joining the Tesla Supercharger network. Because then I'd know I would have charging everywhere I go.

Most EV drivers are already familiar with the other networks with dysfunctional equipment. At least in the Midwest. I never know if a Chargepoint unit is going to be working properly. The Blinks network seemed to always have issues. My last trip to Florida I stayed at a hotel with an EV charger by Semacharge in Jasper, AL. I plugged in and it tripped the breaker within 5 minutes. The non-qualified electrician wired the 30 amp unit onto a 30 amp breaker. He did not de-rate it properly. I plugged into the other side which luckily was still functional and turned down my draw to 20 amps and that one worked fine. This is why people fear EVs. No fear of that sort on the Tesla network. It just works.
 

Thats a good article but you have to ask yourself a couple of questions and answer them because looking at the total, there only roughly 220,000 Small Lux Sedans sold world wide extrapolating by doubling US.

1) How the heck can Tesla sell 500,000 Model 3s if the market for these cars is only 220,000?
2) We have seen a drop in BMW and Daimler and Audi sales from those models over the last couple of years, but if it was the same people why wouldnt they have dropped even more while people held out for a Model 3 after placing a reservation?
3) What does all of this tell us about the 450,000-500,000 reservation holders?

I am not going to directly answer because I am interested in what others think. But in General I think what we are seeing with the model 3 it is filling a need in the market that had been there for a long time and has been pent up. Because 300,000 reservations happened basically overnight, it means that people bought in before even know what the car was. Most hadnt even seen it before putting down the deposit, which is a small thing because it was totally refundable, but still hundreds of thousands put down a deposit not knowing what the car even looked like. To me this points to a system wide pent up demand for a sexy, environmentally friendly vehicle. Hybrids were not good enough, they where not sexy and they where not fun to drive. They make you feel good about your efforts with the environment but they do not make you feel satisfied from a more animal like place where the butterflies in your stomach live. This screams to me as not being Small Lux Sedan customers. I dont think the lines at Tesla stores were filled with BMW and Daimler owners. I think they were mostly Prius and Leaf owners. There were certainly some people in the small lux camp, but I think the vast majority, including myself were not in that camp at all.

Now, once the car hits the roads in mass, I think it will start to impact that segment more and more. I think the first day depositors where pent up demand that came from every class of vehicle known to man, including small economical cars all the way up to BMW 5 Series, but not just people who typically buy cars in the small lux sedan class. Those customers are still ripe for the pickings and I think they will be picked off once Tesla has worked through the reservations in full and people are just ordering and picking up cars. This is good and bad. Its bad, because even I was touting how this would force BMW, Daimler and the like to move. In fact it might actually make them a bit complacent because I dont think BMW 3 series will drop like a rock for another year. Eventually it will fall, but not until people can just order and take delivery in a few weeks. I think the damage that Tesla will do to those brands is all but in the books already for the next year, those people already put off buying a new BMW 3 or C class while they waited.

What does this mean? I think it means that the Model 3s magic is that it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people and its wide appeal is something Tesla needed badly. Model S had broad appeal but the price and margins for the lowest end mode was not feasible for the millions of people who lusted after one. Now the Model 3 is, and most of those people are not small lux customers today, but will be because of the model 3.

The thing I never thought about before today was the fact that people waited in line and put down a deposit on a car they knew nothing about with he exception of the fact that it was going to be a mass market Tesla at a price more people could afford. It was not a bunch of Small Lux sedan owners. In fact, I would not be surprised to see the 5 Series and E class be hurt by the model 3 as much as the 3 Series and C class, which actually hurts those companies more because as you move up in class, the margins get bigger thus losing sales hurts them more.

This is why bears are confused and keep saying there is no way there are 450k+ reservations. They would be right in a world where people only stay in their lane and only buy the car they are supposed to. This is not reality, people are complex and are driven in many different ways. This is human nature and this is why we have Marketers that are able to go out and find people to purchase products. Tesla's marketing is the cars themselves and the word of mouth. This is why EVs had to be sexy to make them work. Econoboxes would have never worked, even if they were cheap, which is impossible until costs come down.
 
Thats a good article but you have to ask yourself a couple of questions and answer them because looking at the total, there only roughly 220,000 Small Lux Sedans sold world wide extrapolating by doubling US.

1) How the heck can Tesla sell 500,000 Model 3s if the market for these cars is only 220,000?
2) We have seen a drop in BMW and Daimler and Audi sales from those models over the last couple of years, but if it was the same people why wouldnt they have dropped even more while people held out for a Model 3 after placing a reservation?
3) What does all of this tell us about the 450,000-500,000 reservation holders?

I am not going to directly answer because I am interested in what others think. But in General I think what we are seeing with the model 3 it is filling a need in the market that had been there for a long time and has been pent up. Because 300,000 reservations happened basically overnight, it means that people bought in before even know what the car was. Most hadnt even seen it before putting down the deposit, which is a small thing because it was totally refundable, but still hundreds of thousands put down a deposit not knowing what the car even looked like. To me this points to a system wide pent up demand for a sexy, environmentally friendly vehicle. Hybrids were not good enough, they where not sexy and they where not fun to drive. They make you feel good about your efforts with the environment but they do not make you feel satisfied from a more animal like place where the butterflies in your stomach live. This screams to me as not being Small Lux Sedan customers. I dont think the lines at Tesla stores were filled with BMW and Daimler owners. I think they were mostly Prius and Leaf owners. There were certainly some people in the small lux camp, but I think the vast majority, including myself were not in that camp at all.

Now, once the car hits the roads in mass, I think it will start to impact that segment more and more. I think the first day depositors where pent up demand that came from every class of vehicle known to man, including small economical cars all the way up to BMW 5 Series, but not just people who typically buy cars in the small lux sedan class. Those customers are still ripe for the pickings and I think they will be picked off once Tesla has worked through the reservations in full and people are just ordering and picking up cars. This is good and bad. Its bad, because even I was touting how this would force BMW, Daimler and the like to move. In fact it might actually make them a bit complacent because I dont think BMW 3 series will drop like a rock for another year. Eventually it will fall, but not until people can just order and take delivery in a few weeks. I think the damage that Tesla will do to those brands is all but in the books already for the next year, those people already put off buying a new BMW 3 or C class while they waited.

What does this mean? I think it means that the Model 3s magic is that it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people and its wide appeal is something Tesla needed badly. Model S had broad appeal but the price and margins for the lowest end mode was not feasible for the millions of people who lusted after one. Now the Model 3 is, and most of those people are not small lux customers today, but will be because of the model 3.

The thing I never thought about before today was the fact that people waited in line and put down a deposit on a car they knew nothing about with he exception of the fact that it was going to be a mass market Tesla at a price more people could afford. It was not a bunch of Small Lux sedan owners. In fact, I would not be surprised to see the 5 Series and E class be hurt by the model 3 as much as the 3 Series and C class, which actually hurts those companies more because as you move up in class, the margins get bigger thus losing sales hurts them more.

This is why bears are confused and keep saying there is no way there are 450k+ reservations. They would be right in a world where people only stay in their lane and only buy the car they are supposed to. This is not reality, people are complex and are driven in many different ways. This is human nature and this is why we have Marketers that are able to go out and find people to purchase products. Tesla's marketing is the cars themselves and the word of mouth. This is why EVs had to be sexy to make them work. Econoboxes would have never worked, even if they were cheap, which is impossible until costs come down.

My short answer to your long mail: The Model 3 is defining a new segment on his own. We are all tapping on new land and know body knows where the limit is. The 3 may very well sell +700k annually. All other ICE manufacturers from different segments will suffer.
 
Thats a good article but you have to ask yourself a couple of questions and answer them because looking at the total, there only roughly 220,000 Small Lux Sedans sold world wide extrapolating by doubling US.


BMW 3/4 Series US sales represent between 1/4 to 1/3 of global sales.

In 2016 BMW made 411,484 3/4 Series, obviously some overhang was sold in 2017 and some 2015 production was sold in 2016.

BMW 3 Series - Wikipedia
 
My short answer to your long mail: The Model 3 is defining a new segment on his own. We are all tapping on new land and know body knows where the limit is. The 3 may very well sell +700k annually. All other ICE manufacturers from different segments will suffer.

Fully agreed. I myself would never ever thought of buying a new car before M3. Now I expect to spend 50k in 2019 (I'm from Europe).
 

Those executives and larger shareholders should be looking at this with horror. At this time, there are no good solutions for them. Many people who test drive the Model 3, will not consider BMW, Mercedes & Audi again. As more and more people buy the Model 3, even more people will switch. We have seen this phenomenon with iPhone. When BWM's sales drop 40%, their profit could drop 80% or more. I hope those shareholders understand this.

Using my example, the electricity cost is 1/5 of gasoline cost to drive the same distance, this is in the US. Gasoline price is higher in EU and China.

The Model Y is coming too. Years ago Elon told them they should put their A-team on EV. ICEs can't compete with EVs, they will finally realize it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.