Can the Mod please ban this twit?
If you are here just trolling, then you need to be timed out.
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If you are here just trolling, then you need to be timed out.
CALGARYARSENAL
Member
This news is crazy ugly. I returned to see how this forum would be responding to the news tonight. All the comments regarding "loading up in the morning" are pure B.S. Look out for yourself gang. Not saying its going to zero, but the groupthink on here may end up deadly. They will be holding your hand telling you to buy at $50.00 too. Good luck to all!
Board members do not have a fiduciary duty to shorts, but all directors and officers of public company have a statutory duty to speak truthfully and not recklessly.
Thanks for the link. It sounds like Elon’s first impulse is to fight. IMHO, the better outcome would be a negotiated settlement where he steps down as a director, stays as CEO, pays a $20M fine, and promises to, in the future, relay important information like this in an 8K filing. This is better because it would be over quickly. But it all depends on the SEC and Elon’s willingness to compromise.
I think this is nonsense - the news tonight has zero impact on near term Tesla company fundamentals.
It will certainly be a lot cheaper at $260 than at $420.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
This is THE question. I've only bought a few shares & calls till now through all this turmoil. Is this the time to invest big ?
My plan was to buy before Monday's deliveries - but the SP ran up quite a bit yesterday.
But this is going to be circus - with a lot of know-nothings pontificating about what will happen with the case - and several potential 10% drops (and spikes) possible in the future.
I wonder whether Bloomberg/SEC sort of tried to bury this news on Kavanaugh hearing day.
Do you think there would have been much difference in company performance if Musk was in a non-executive “product shepherd” role with Deepak as CEO instead?
There is nothing stopping Elon from remaining the public face of Tesla (Except on earning calls) in a limited time non-executive role, still overseeing product and operational details etc
Fact Checking
Well-Known Member
I'm glad we cleared that up: they have fiduciary duty to shareholders, and when shorts gain, shareholders lose; when shorts lose, shareholders gain.
So as per mathematical necessity the Tesla board has a fiduciary duty to help shareholders, which, inversely, is hurting shorts.
The countless quotes in the SEC's complaint about shorts are showing a basic misunderstanding of this fundamental inverse relationship. Elon fought against shorts because shorts were hurting shareholders and protecting shareholders from shorts and other harms is his job.
Which Elon did, but clearly that duty to speak truthfully does not extend to you.
Yeah, make me miss the good time of model X fiasco and the model 3 production hell.
///////////////////////
I.
Finding that Defendant violated the provisions of the federal securities laws as alleged herein;
II.
Permanently restraining and enjoining Defendant from, directly or indirectly, engaging in conduct in violation of Section 10(b) of the Exchange Act [15 U.S.C. § 78j(b)] and Rule 10b-5 thereunder [17 C.F.R. § 240.10b-5];
III.
Ordering Defendant to disgorge, with prejudgment interest, any ill-gotten gains received as a result of the violations alleged herein;
IV.
Ordering Defendant to pay civil penalties pursuant to Section 21(d)(3) of the Exchange Act [
15 U.S.C. § 78u(d)(3)];
V.
Ordering that Defendant be prohibited from acting as an officer or director of any issuer that has a class of securities registered pursuant to Section 12 of the Exchange Act [
15 U.S.C. § 78l] or that is required to file reports pursuant to Section 15(d) of the Exchange Act [15 U.S./////////////
OK, fairly certain Musk has not gorged on any ill-gotten gains, as he would have to sell stock to have done this, and I know that EVERYONE would know if he sold stock, so he did not. The SEC mus know this as well, so I am guessing # 2 is boilerplate?
Can anyone clarify what the civil penalties could add up to?
Is this something that will be resolved in six months? A year? Several years? If Elon could stay on for another three years, for example, then this really means nothing and Tesla is OK. If he is thrown out in six months then this is problematic.
Thoughts?
I.
Finding that Defendant violated the provisions of the federal securities laws as alleged herein;
II.
Permanently restraining and enjoining Defendant from, directly or indirectly, engaging in conduct in violation of Section 10(b) of the Exchange Act [15 U.S.C. § 78j(b)] and Rule 10b-5 thereunder [17 C.F.R. § 240.10b-5];
III.
Ordering Defendant to disgorge, with prejudgment interest, any ill-gotten gains received as a result of the violations alleged herein;
IV.
Ordering Defendant to pay civil penalties pursuant to Section 21(d)(3) of the Exchange Act [
15 U.S.C. § 78u(d)(3)];
V.
Ordering that Defendant be prohibited from acting as an officer or director of any issuer that has a class of securities registered pursuant to Section 12 of the Exchange Act [
15 U.S.C. § 78l] or that is required to file reports pursuant to Section 15(d) of the Exchange Act [15 U.S./////////////
OK, fairly certain Musk has not gorged on any ill-gotten gains, as he would have to sell stock to have done this, and I know that EVERYONE would know if he sold stock, so he did not. The SEC mus know this as well, so I am guessing # 2 is boilerplate?
Can anyone clarify what the civil penalties could add up to?
Is this something that will be resolved in six months? A year? Several years? If Elon could stay on for another three years, for example, then this really means nothing and Tesla is OK. If he is thrown out in six months then this is problematic.
Thoughts?
Fact Checking
Well-Known Member
They wanted to bury any political blow-back against this obvious hatchet job of a lawsuit against one of the most innovative companies of America - but they knew what the market reaction would be, which appears to be their main interest.
No, that’s not what they said. The question was whether Elon could remain as CEO until a court judgement. The answer was yes, but if the court can order him barred from being CEO.
bhtooefr
Active Member
Looks like the maximum civil penalties under Section 21(d)(3) are either $100,000 (as Musk is a natural person, being an actual human being) or the gross pecuniary gain (which is $0 AFAIK?), whichever is greater: 15 U.S. Code § 78u - Investigations and actions
...I'm actually not sure they can ask for both disgorging the gains and Section 21(d)(3) penalties, as that's already covered in Section 21(d)(3) if I understand it correctly?
Edit: Oh, I think I get it - disgorging the gains is restitution, the maximum penalties are set by the gains (so therefore a bigger penalty is available for a bigger crime). But when there's no gains...
...I'm actually not sure they can ask for both disgorging the gains and Section 21(d)(3) penalties, as that's already covered in Section 21(d)(3) if I understand it correctly?
Edit: Oh, I think I get it - disgorging the gains is restitution, the maximum penalties are set by the gains (so therefore a bigger penalty is available for a bigger crime). But when there's no gains...
Last edited:
Fact Checking
Well-Known Member
This depends on the parties: any of the two parties could drag this lawsuit out almost indefinitely - the average civil litigation in the U.S. is over 25 months, without appeals, but complex civil litigation with well-funded parties can take a lot longer - if that is the intent.
The civil suit Fairfax started against the NY short hedge funds at around 2006 (Chanos was a party to that lawsuit too) was decided in 2012 in the first instance (6 years), but appeals are still ongoing (!) and part of the case apparently goes back on trial. So 12 years and counting.
Just looked back through the court filing. Everyone keeps using the word "fraud" but there is actually not a single mention of fraud in the filing?
Go figure.
Go figure.
That's the goal of doing this now, with the Q3 numbers coming next week. The SEC also appears to be short TSLA.
That’s not how it works in the real world. The CEO will want control. And will disagree with Elon. Frequently.
Elon is either the CEO, or he leaves Tesla. No other option.
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