Ugh. Another Model S fire - 2013-11-06

[BobHodgen]

On a crowded highway it's sometimes impossible to safely change lanes or brake hard without causing an accident. Last week we saw a large contractor's wheelbarrow in the middle lane of the interstate. Fortunately traffic was light.

There are a lot of poorly secured loads on the road.

My son and I jokingly refer to these as "Florida Loads" and trade pictures of the worst offenders. It seems like we're living in a third world country sometimes.

 

[vfx]

By the way. Here on TMC, Dr Computer, Augieko, Davecolone0606, and VFX (myself) have all run over SERIOUSLY large and dangerous steel road debris. No injuries, no fires, damaged but still working cars and while Augie had a pack penetration it just left him with him with a reduced range Tesla.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

The ground clearance is also a significant factor influencing range... And since these obstacles are random it seems that the only way to avoid them would be some kind of active collision detection. And for such small objects that may be very difficult.

IMO an active collision detection system working for debris is difficult to implement. The debris could be considered an obstacle from the system and we would have unwanted reactions from the car.

 

[NigelM]

IMO an active collision detection system working for debris is difficult to implement. The debris could be considered an obstacle from the system and we would have unwanted reactions from the car.

I agree completely. The story I told up-thread about the pieces of wood did not include the fact that I couldn't have braked severely or changed lanes without causing a major pile-up (due to the speed of the cars behind/around me).

 

[markwj]

I agree that it is necessary to take into account the proximity of the person behind you. This is why I said "to all of our peril." In the example you gave, you were not following the car in front of you with sufficient buffer distance to come to a complete stop in the event of danger. That is legally and logically your fault according to every insurance company in the USA. Not sure how it is where you are.

The 2 second rule is legally acceptable in most countries I know of, which is why I used it in my example:

Two-second rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can, and do, drive so that I am within a safe emergency braking distance. If you prefer use 3 or 4 seconds - as it is irrelevant - as I said, I'm concerned about the stopping distance of the guy behind me, not my own.

Can you honestly say that more than 10% of drivers on the roads you drive follow that 2 or 3 second rule 100% of the time? Where I drive it is less than 1% of the drivers even 50% of the time. For evidence, witness multi-car pile-ups - none of those drivers had left adequate braking distance (except for the ones that got rear-ended).

Just today, I drove home on the freeway with cars filling all 3 lanes. I had plenty of space between me and the car in front of me. Behind me for a good 3 or 4 minutes, perhaps 2, 3 metres or less distance, was a motorbike, swerving left and right (in and our of my blind spot) trying to find a gap between lanes to squeeze past. Guy is gonna get killed some day, but I don't want to be the one to help him on his way. I would rather hit the road debris than kill someone.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I consider it unreasonable to blame the drivers in these cases, with no knowledge of the actual facts of the case.

 

[Alpha]

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I consider it unreasonable to blame the drivers in these cases, with no knowledge of the actual facts of the case.

I agree, the MS owner with the huge gash in the battery pack from the tow hook that I posted a little earlier in this thread recently said he couldn't understand why those drivers couldn't swerve to avoid the road debris until it happened to him!

 

[Gizmotoy]

By the way. Here on TMC, Dr Computer, Augieko, Davecolone0606, and VFX (myself) have all run over SERIOUSLY large and dangerous steel road debris. No injuries, no fires, damaged but still working cars and while Augie had a pack penetration it just left him with him with a reduced range Tesla.

Reduced range from an impact? That would be terrible. Is there a thread on it somewhere? No luck searching.

 

[swon]

Point of inquiry: why should it be acceptable for people to drive over a tow hitch with their cars undamaged? I'm not saying a vehicle fire is a desirable outcome of crashing, but anyone who is incapable of braking or avoiding stationary road debris in the course of normal driving shouldn't have a license, or should at least pay higher insurance premiums to subsidize my superior driving skill. The Brembos on the Model S can haul it down from 80 ridiculously fast, but cannot correct for driver incompetence, which it appears was the case in all three of the Model S "fire" incidents so far.

Wow, judgemental much? The situation doesn't always allow for evasive maneuvers, and hindsight is 20/20. I always leave a good distance between myself and the car ahead of me, but I had one situation in particular where I was boxed in between two semi-trucks in the middle lane and some metal road debris was in my lane. The best I could do was slam on the brakes to drop it from 65 MPH to 50 MPH, but I still hit it and had no other options short of ramming into a tractor-trailer on either side of me, which would have been futile anyway. So I was stuck hitting the FOD with a slow 18-wheeler on one side and another one passing me on the other side. Life happens, you don't always have a choice in the matter man.

 

[FluxCap]

The 2 second rule is legally acceptable in most countries I know of, which is why I used it in my example:

Two-second rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can, and do, drive so that I am within a safe emergency braking distance. If you prefer use 3 or 4 seconds - as it is irrelevant - as I said, I'm concerned about the stopping distance of the guy behind me, not my own.

Can you honestly say that more than 10% of drivers on the roads you drive follow that 2 or 3 second rule 100% of the time? Where I drive it is less than 1% of the drivers even 50% of the time. For evidence, witness multi-car pile-ups - none of those drivers had left adequate braking distance (except for the ones that got rear-ended).

Just today, I drove home on the freeway with cars filling all 3 lanes. I had plenty of space between me and the car in front of me. Behind me for a good 3 or 4 minutes, perhaps 2, 3 metres or less distance, was a motorbike, swerving left and right (in and our of my blind spot) trying to find a gap between lanes to squeeze past. Guy is gonna get killed some day, but I don't want to be the one to help him on his way. I would rather hit the road debris than kill someone.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I consider it unreasonable to blame the drivers in these cases, with no knowledge of the actual facts of the case.

I'm not saying I have knowledge of these cases. But it is most certainly relevant how close the car in your rear-view mirror is to you, and you should increase your following distance to account for tailgaters. Again, not sure how it is where you are, but it is almost always legally your fault if you hit stationary road debris in the USA, because you almost always have the power to slow down and extend the following distance between you and the car in front of you, and this is what you are supposed to do. The 2-second rule is just a starting point, not a hard physical or legal mandate.

Most people do not realize that they can correct for the danger of tailgaters by slowing down. I do this often when someone is tailgating me on a multi-lane highway. This often results in them flipping me off, changing lanes and going around me. Which achieves precisely the result I was looking for: reduction of the danger of their car from impacting me from behind.

US roads and drivers are a nightmare of horrible skill, negligence, ignorance and danger. I love driving fast on a race track with other skilled drivers, but I hate driving on US roads. I can't wait for autonomous driving.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, judgemental much? The situation doesn't always allow for evasive maneuvers, and hindsight is 20/20. I always leave a good distance between myself and the car ahead of me, but I had one situation in particular where I was boxed in between two semi-trucks in the middle lane and some metal road debris was in my lane. The best I could do was slam on the brakes to drop it from 65 MPH to 50 MPH, but I still hit it and had no other options short of ramming into a tractor-trailer on either side of me, which would have been futile anyway. So I was stuck hitting the FOD with a slow 18-wheeler on one side and another one passing me on the other side. Life happens, you don't always have a choice in the matter man.

I do not intend to make light of accidents and I am very glad you are OK. I am also not saying that every impact with road debris is correctable by driving technique alone, but I am saying that driver error should not be completely eliminated from discussion in collisions.

Again, I am very glad you are OK. Out of curiosity, did you not see the debris in time? Why couldn't you brake harder? If you had tailgaters, why didn't you slow down?

Am I judging the inferior driving skill of most of the drivers on US roads? I certainly am. I drive defensively every day because of this.

 

[swon]

The 2 second rule is legally acceptable in most countries I know of, which is why I used it in my example:

Two-second rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can, and do, drive so that I am within a safe emergency braking distance. If you prefer use 3 or 4 seconds - as it is irrelevant - as I said, I'm concerned about the stopping distance of the guy behind me, not my own.

Can you honestly say that more than 10% of drivers on the roads you drive follow that 2 or 3 second rule 100% of the time? Where I drive it is less than 1% of the drivers even 50% of the time. For evidence, witness multi-car pile-ups - none of those drivers had left adequate braking distance (except for the ones that got rear-ended).

Just today, I drove home on the freeway with cars filling all 3 lanes. I had plenty of space between me and the car in front of me. Behind me for a good 3 or 4 minutes, perhaps 2, 3 metres or less distance, was a motorbike, swerving left and right (in and our of my blind spot) trying to find a gap between lanes to squeeze past. Guy is gonna get killed some day, but I don't want to be the one to help him on his way. I would rather hit the road debris than kill someone.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I consider it unreasonable to blame the drivers in these cases, with no knowledge of the actual facts of the case.

It seems like I see an accident nearly every day on my 50-mile daily commute. I'd say 90% of the time it's from people following too closely. In my state, the person behind is always at-fault as well, even if the person in front swerves into your lane (which is why having a dashcam is a Good Thing). That still doesn't stop people from doing 80 on the highway & tailgating each other. I've seen some crazy pileups because people are stacked like dominos - one goes down, they all go down in seconds. Horrible. But even then, it doesn't always matter. I've had stuff fly off cars in front of me that you just can't avoid, whether you're in a tunnel, on a busy 2-lane road, whatever. Stuff happens. It stinks.

 

[vfx]

Reduced range from an impact? That would be terrible. Is there a thread on it somewhere? No luck searching.

There was no injuries, fire or non operation. The battery pack was punctured. Cells were damaged. It's an accident like getting a hole in a gas tank.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/23339-RIP-Vin-783

 

[swon]

I do not intend to make light of accidents and I am very glad you are OK. I am also not saying that every impact with road debris is correctable by driving technique alone, but I am saying that driver error should not be completely eliminated from discussion in collisions.

Again, I am very glad you are OK. Out of curiosity, did you not see the debris in time? Why couldn't you brake harder? If you had tailgaters, why didn't you slow down?

Am I judging the inferior driving skill of most of the drivers on US roads? I certainly am. I drive defensively every day because of this.

It was raining and the FOD came shooting out from the car ahead of me, I think they ran it over and it was propelled backwards from their car. I had enough distance to slam on my brakes, but even with a 2-second (or more) rule applied, that doesn't give you much reaction time. I agree that driver error is a big cause of accidents, but I also think you're being too harsh and unrealistic. What if a deer jumps in front of you? What if somebody's muffler falls off? Case in point:

http://i.imgur.com/j0vCedh.gif

I don't think most drivers in the US, or really anywhere, have "inferior" driving skills. I think there's a range of skills and most people fall in the middle. Then you get the outliers who are either hotshots and drive like they have a deathwish, or who have poor skills and are a danger on the road - the people who don't use their blinkers, the grandmas who drive at 35 MPH on 65 MPH highways, the people who can't stay in their lane to save their lives. I am a big fan of defensive driving because people are nuts, but that doesn't mean most or all people are bad at driving. You just have to stay on your toes because all it takes is one person to cause an accident...

 

[efusco]

P{snip}but anyone who is incapable of braking or avoiding stationary road debris in the course of normal driving shouldn't have a license{snip}

Wow, I can think of dozens of situations where, despite following every conservative drivers ed recommendation in the hands of a highly trained and experienced driver that collisions with objects on the roadway are unavoidable. A tow hitch is a near match for road color even in a nice evenly lit day, but shadows, haze, darkness, other vehicles knocking the object into your lane, etc. can all create a situation where the object appears and even if a drastic evasive maneuver was possible, couldn't be accomplished in time to completely avoid passing over or hitting the object.

Add to that the realities of the roadway, there may be no shoulder with oncoming traffic, there may be traffic on either side of you, and evading would create a more dangerous situation than simply accepting that you're going to hit or pass over the object in the road. Hitting something like that in no way implies a bad driver.

 

[FluxCap]

It was raining and the FOD came shooting out from the car ahead of me, I think they ran it over and it was propelled backwards from their car. I had enough distance to slam on my brakes, but even with a 2-second (or more) rule applied, that doesn't give you much reaction time. I agree that driver error is a big cause of accidents, but I also think you're being too harsh and unrealistic. What if a deer jumps in front of you? What if somebody's muffler falls off? Case in point:

http://i.imgur.com/j0vCedh.gif

I don't think most drivers in the US, or really anywhere, have "inferior" driving skills. I think there's a range of skills and most people fall in the middle. Then you get the outliers who are either hotshots and drive like they have a deathwish, or who have poor skills and are a danger on the road - the people who don't use their blinkers, the grandmas who drive at 35 MPH on 65 MPH highways, the people who can't stay in their lane to save their lives. I am a big fan of defensive driving because people are nuts, but that doesn't mean most or all people are bad at driving. You just have to stay on your toes because all it takes is one person to cause an accident...

Again I'm glad you are OK. Do you not agree that the guy in that .GIF was following WAY too closely at that speed?

I'm not saying this is scientific, but if I generally observe that 80% of drivers on US highways near me drive 5-10mph above the posted speed limit and leave 1-2 car lengths between them and the car in front of them at very high speeds despite what they were taught on their driver's tests, then to me that qualifies as a majority of US drivers displaying inferior driving skills. Or maybe the word is driving decisions. Inferior driving decisions. Anyway, US highways are terrifying displays of ignorance and danger. I hate them. Love driving fast, but not on US highways in traffic.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, I can think of dozens of situations where, despite following every conservative drivers ed recommendation in the hands of a highly trained and experienced driver that collisions with objects on the roadway are unavoidable. A tow hitch is a near match for road color even in a nice evenly lit day, but shadows, haze, darkness, other vehicles knocking the object into your lane, etc. can all create a situation where the object appears and even if a drastic evasive maneuver was possible, couldn't be accomplished in time to completely avoid passing over or hitting the object.

Add to that the realities of the roadway, there may be no shoulder with oncoming traffic, there may be traffic on either side of you, and evading would create a more dangerous situation than simply accepting that you're going to hit or pass over the object in the road. Hitting something like that in no way implies a bad driver.

Most of the conditions you describe are not normal, which is why I said normal conditions. Plus, it is the driver's responsibility to adjust to abnormal or "inclement" driving conditions. Such as slowing down in rain, or slowing down a LOT if hemmed in by walls/traffic without means for evasion in an emergency situation. I also state again: I am not saying all impacts / collisions are caused by driver error. I am saying this should be part of a discussion of reasonable safety expectations while driving a car.

 

[eepic]

By the way. Here on TMC, Dr Computer, Augieko, Davecolone0606, and VFX (myself) have all run over SERIOUSLY large and dangerous steel road debris. No injuries, no fires, damaged but still working cars and while Augie had a pack penetration it just left him with him with a reduced range Tesla.

Could you, or someone, post links to all of these? Clearly this thread is quite high profile to the media and investigators, and I think examples of debris/punctures where there was no fire would be a significant counterpoint to the myth that "all underbelly damage will cause fires".

(I see the Augie one posted, but if someone has a bit of time to put them all in one post it would make it that much easier for potential readers to reference)

 

[swon]

On a crowded highway it's sometimes impossible to safely change lanes or brake hard without causing an accident. Last week we saw a large contractor's wheelbarrow in the middle lane of the interstate. Fortunately traffic was light.

There are a lot of poorly secured loads on the road.

My son and I jokingly refer to these as "Florida Loads" and trade pictures of the worst offenders. It seems like we're living in a third world country sometimes.

I almost spit out my drink when I saw that picture, hahaha! I've seen sofas in the road before, but can you imagine if they hit an overhead wire or something? That's like someone's entire apartment contents!

 

[vfx]

...
Am I judging the inferior driving skill of most of the drivers on US roads? I certainly am. I drive defensively every day because of this.

They are called accidents for a reason. Your logic implies that debris comes from the car in front of the person who hits something. It's a three dimensional world and objects fly, bounce and slide from every direction. I have 10 years as a racer and race driving instructor and have both avoided and hit objects on the freeway. Accidents go up with miles driven, local road conditions and travel routes of truckers, and contractors. Insurance companies have stats on all this.

 

[epley]

It was raining and the FOD came shooting out from the car ahead of me, I think they ran it over and it was propelled backwards from their car. I had enough distance to slam on my brakes, but even with a 2-second (or more) rule applied, that doesn't give you much reaction time. I agree that driver error is a big cause of accidents, but I also think you're being too harsh and unrealistic. What if a deer jumps in front of you? What if somebody's muffler falls off? Case in point:

http://i.imgur.com/j0vCedh.gif

I don't think most drivers in the US, or really anywhere, have "inferior" driving skills. I think there's a range of skills and most people fall in the middle. Then you get the outliers who are either hotshots and drive like they have a deathwish, or who have poor skills and are a danger on the road - the people who don't use their blinkers, the grandmas who drive at 35 MPH on 65 MPH highways, the people who can't stay in their lane to save their lives. I am a big fan of defensive driving because people are nuts, but that doesn't mean most or all people are bad at driving. You just have to stay on your toes because all it takes is one person to cause an accident...

Holy crap that video was scary! You've gotta wonder why they were filming, too!

 

[FluxCap]

They are called accidents for a reason. Your logic implies that debris comes from the car in front of the person who hits something. It's a three dimensional world and objects fly, bounce and slide from every direction. I have 10 years as a racer and race driving instructor and have both avoided and hit objects on the freeway. Accidents go up with miles driven, local road conditions and travel routes of truckers, and contractors. Insurance companies have stats on all this.

I agree. I also have 10+ years as a circuit course racer. I have both hit and avoided debris multiple times on the road. I don't think the fact that there are unavoidable accidents/collisions means that all accidents/collisions are unavoidable, or that driver error is immaterial to the discussion -- do you?

Also I LOVE your Khan reference. I can't tell you how many days I have wished I could move my car Z+ 20 meters.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

.../ A tow hitch is a near match for road color even in a nice evenly lit day, but shadows, haze, darkness, other vehicles knocking the object into your lane, etc. can all create a situation where the object appears and even if a drastic evasive maneuver was possible, couldn't be accomplished in time to completely avoid passing over or hitting the object. /...

Completely unrealistic suggestion:

How about painting all tow hitches peppermint rock-striped bright reflective orange and yellow instead of black?

Would probably increase visibility though…