Understanding PGE/SVCE electricity bills/TrueUP

[cwied]

Unlike most other companies PG&E is regulated and can only charge what was approved by the CPUC. They can't just slap any random fee on the bill and get away with line say your cable company might due.

The blue bull is very straight forward and can be easily matched against the tariff rates. The black bill has many unnecessary tables with a multitude of columns and rows that twice as long every time the billing period straddles a tariff rate change. The only numbers that matter are on the first page and the TRUE-UP HISTORY TABLE on page 2. Everything is just supporting calculations. I can successfully calculate those numbers from the tariff rates within $0.02 (different rounding choices)

The general customer service people really have no clue about the details and the coders that created some of the labels and did a really bad job, but the numbers are valid.

If anyone thinks their bill is wrong, I'd like to see it.

"Wrong" is not the right word for it, but I think if the PCIA and FFS are not supposed to be netted against transmission credits, the "cumulative energy charges" are a somewhat meaningless number. In reality the true-up balance that is going to be zeroed out should be $-199.97, not $-92.77 since the PCIA and FFS can't be offset by the balance.

As to a wrong bill, some time ago PG&E double-billed me for a month because they updated the "Config ID" on my meter and then counted the whole month's usage under each ID instead of counting only the portion of the month each ID was active. Customer service swore it was "impossible" that they would double-bill, but after escalation they figured out the error and fixed it. It was very obvious because they doubled both the import and export numbers so I exported more than the estimated PV generation for the month so they actually disallowed some of the credits on that bill.

 

[Merrill]

Unlike most other companies PG&E is regulated and can only charge what was approved by the CPUC. They can't just slap any random fee on the bill and get away with line say your cable company might due.

The blue bull is very straight forward and can be easily matched against the tariff rates. The black bill has many unnecessary tables with a multitude of columns and rows that twice as long every time the billing period straddles a tariff rate change. The only numbers that matter are on the first page and the TRUE-UP HISTORY TABLE on page 2. Everything is just supporting calculations. I can successfully calculate those numbers from the tariff rates within $0.02 (different rounding choices)

The general customer service people really have no clue about the details and the coders that created some of the labels and did a really bad job, but the numbers are valid.

If anyone thinks their bill is wrong, I'd like to see it.

That is the problem, the CPUC are being paid off by the utility monopolies.

 

[getakey]

After my PWs were installed, my bill was wrong for 3 months. Had to escalate 3 levels before it was resolved. They revised my bills retroactively after it was fixed. Fortunately, I had solar installed for a year before I added the PWs. Thus, I had some historical reference. After PWs, my bill amount went up not down even though I was using rate arbitrage using the PWs. If I did not have the solar installed before, I don't think I could have figured out that it was wrong

 

[Redhill_qik]

"Wrong" is not the right word for it, but I think if the PCIA and FFS are not supposed to be netted against transmission credits, the "cumulative energy charges" are a somewhat meaningless number. In reality the true-up balance that is going to be zeroed out should be $-199.97, not $-92.77 since the PCIA and FFS can't be offset by the balance.

As to a wrong bill, some time ago PG&E double-billed me for a month because they updated the "Config ID" on my meter and then counted the whole month's usage under each ID instead of counting only the portion of the month each ID was active. Customer service swore it was "impossible" that they would double-bill, but after escalation they figured out the error and fixed it. It was very obvious because they doubled both the import and export numbers so I exported more than the estimated PV generation for the month so they actually disallowed some of the credits on that bill.

I agree that the cumulative number is very confusing and it becomes even more confusing with the CCA providing generation. If the imports were lower than the exports then the cumulative number would have been the final number, but since the imports were greater than the exports another rule comes into play. The second summary table on the first place could be improved by making this more clear, but this only happens in the rare case where TOU arbitrage results in a credit when you are a net consumer.

I agree that the ID change generated a wrong bill, but it wasn't something that was symptomatic in the billing process and was identifiable and fixed.

 

[Merrill]

After my PWs were installed, my bill was wrong for 3 months. Had to escalate 3 levels before it was resolved. They revised my bills retroactively after it was fixed. Fortunately, I had solar installed for a year before I added the PWs. Thus, I had some historical reference. After PWs, my bill amount went up not down even though I was using rate arbitrage using the PWs. If I did not have the solar installed before, I don't think I could have figured out that it was wrong

Do you know what was wrong, I seem to have the same issue and cannot get it resolved I have had solar since 2010 and my true up was always around $400. Since I had the powerwalls installed I’m already at $1000 and still have another 5 months. They did bump me from E6 to TOUC and from NEM1 to NEM2.

 

[getakey]

Do you know what was wrong, I seem to have the same issue and cannot get it resolved I have had solar since 2010 and my true up was always around $400. Since I had the powerwalls installed I’m already at $1000 and still have another 5 months. They did bump me from E6 to TOUC and from NEM1 to NEM2.

They did not explain what was wrong, but as I recall, I was not getting credit for all of the electricity exported to the grid. Let me see if I can find the old bills.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Do you know what was wrong, I seem to have the same issue and cannot get it resolved I have had solar since 2010 and my true up was always around $400. Since I had the powerwalls installed I’m already at $1000 and still have another 5 months. They did bump me from E6 to TOUC and from NEM1 to NEM2.

Can you share your true-up bills before and after?

 

[Redhill_qik]

Do you know what was wrong, I seem to have the same issue and cannot get it resolved I have had solar since 2010 and my true up was always around $400. Since I had the powerwalls installed I’m already at $1000 and still have another 5 months. They did bump me from E6 to TOUC and from NEM1 to NEM2.

First, take a look at the PAIRED STORAGE: MAXIMUM EXPORT ESTIMATON table. Is the amount of list as EXPORTED TO THE GRID to the grid less than the ESTIMATED PV GENERATION and equal to the GENERATION ELIGIBLE FOR CREDIT? If so then you are getting credits for everything that is exported, if not then maybe PG&E has the wrong information about you PV array and is estimate is too low.

Second, if your last true-up you owed $400 for your imports and so far this year the total is $1,000 owed you are probably as you say that you have 5 months to go (true-up in October) and this number likely should be coming down as you generate excess solar during the spring/summer months.

 

[Merrill]

First, take a look at the PAIRED STORAGE: MAXIMUM EXPORT ESTIMATON table. Is the amount of list as EXPORTED TO THE GRID to the grid less than the ESTIMATED PV GENERATION and equal to the GENERATION ELIGIBLE FOR CREDIT? If so then you are getting credits for everything that is exported, if not then maybe PG&E has the wrong information about you PV array and is estimate is too low.

Second, if your last true-up you owed $400 for your imports and so far this year the total is $1,000 owed you are probably as you say that you have 5 months to go (true-up in October) and this number likely should be coming down as you generate excess solar during the spring/summer months.

Thanks for the info my paired storage bill is correct as you explained, I know I will generate more solar until my true up (July). I will see how the true up is in July I know it will be higher than before powerwalls but probably due to going from E6 to TOUC and from NEM 1 to 2.

 

[wwu123]

Thanks for the info my paired storage bill is correct as you explained, I know I will generate more solar until my true up (July). I will see how the true up is in July I know it will be higher than before powerwalls but probably due to going from E6 to TOUC and from NEM 1 to 2.

Definitely the loss of E-6 with solar is gonna hurt, but that was inevitable regardless with the 5-year grandfathering expiry, the shift in its TOU periods, and it's absolute sunsetting end of the year. Adding NBC's with NEM2 is going to add up as well.

You'll definitely be offsetting some of that $1000 heading into the spring and summer before your true-up - but shouldn't you be on EV2-A to maximize the load-shifting arbitrage, esp in the summer months? Doesn't seem like E-TOU-C would have enough spread to get you back down close to your old true-ups - almost no benefit to load-shift 8 months of the year. Unless you're just using the powerwalls for backup (in which case definitely won't help lower your true-up).

 

[Merrill]

Definitely the loss of E-6 with solar is gonna hurt, but that was inevitable regardless with the 5-year grandfathering expiry, the shift in its TOU periods, and it's absolute sunsetting end of the year. Adding NBC's with NEM2 is going to add up as well.

You'll definitely be offsetting some of that $1000 heading into the spring and summer before your true-up - but shouldn't you be on EV2-A to maximize the load-shifting arbitrage, esp in the summer months? Doesn't seem like E-TOU-C would have enough spread to get you back down close to your old true-ups - almost no benefit to load-shift 8 months of the year. Unless you're just using the powerwalls for backup (in which case definitely won't help lower your true-up).

I was going to look at going to EV2-A but saw that the rates went up 20%, do you still think that would be worth investigating. I do run the house on the powerwalls from 4 to 9 peak.

 

[Merrill]

It looks like I cannot have EV2-A since I have EVB on a second meter.

 

[wwu123]

I was going to look at going to EV2-A but saw that the rates went up 20%, do you still think that would be worth investigating. I do run the house on the powerwalls from 4 to 9 peak.

E-TOU-C rates went up 20% as well, I think all the rates did. But since you are precluded from EV2-A, not much choice. Possibly E-TOU-D has a greater spread between peak and non-peak? I haven't looked closely at the -D since it was way more expensive for me (but that may mean it works better for Powerwall users)

 

[Merrill]

I think we are given very few choices and as such with the utility monopoly electricity prices will never go down.

 

[holeydonut]

I think we are given very few choices and as such with the utility monopoly electricity prices will never go down.

Neither will gasoline prices. Just hit $6.40 a gallon for me to fill up my Volvo

Cybertruck when plzzzz???

 

[holeydonut]

So it turns out, the B&W bills can be wrong. Like, I think it's possible the math is just whack but hardly anyone ever takes the time to review the B&W bills (except for @Redhill_qik and @miimura of course). And since nobody at PG&E can ever reconcile them either... if you spot something that seems like a discrepancy it is possible to get a recovery!

Second-hardest earned $30.03 in my life. First hardest was the SGIP for the Powerwalls. I'm going to frame this cash and three pennies alongside that SGIP check.

 

[miimura]

So it turns out, the B&W bills can be wrong. Like, I think it's possible the math is just whack but hardly anyone ever takes the time to review the B&W bills (except for @Redhill_qik and @miimura of course). And since nobody at PG&E can ever reconcile them either... if you spot something that seems like a discrepancy it is possible to get a recovery!

Second-hardest earned $30.03 in my life. First hardest was the SGIP for the Powerwalls. I'm going to frame this cash and three pennies alongside that SGIP check.

Nice. I once found that PG&E billed for "estimated usage" during a power outage. It was $1.05 worth. I decided that it wasn't worth my time in that instance, but I will definitely be looking for it again in the future.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Nice. I once found that PG&E billed for "estimated usage" during a power outage. It was $1.05 worth. I decided that it wasn't worth my time in that instance, but I will definitely be looking for it again in the future.

My assumption is that you saw this in the CSV data downloaded from the PG&E. My understanding is that this is just an attempt to estimate how much power was used when the meter data was unavailable and it would be based on the valid meter readings before and after the missing data. There might be a some misallocation of the data across a TOU time rate boundary, but probably only a couple of cents worth.

This is similar to how they allocate the gas rates which change on the 1st of every month. If you used 47 therms and the billing period was 30 days with 11 in the last month and 19 in the current month then allocate 17.2333 (47*11/30) and 29.7667 (47*19/30) to the current month. It's frustrating because they actually have the data (sometimes I see this as estimated as well), but refuse to use it. It is also frustrating that the therm multiplier has 6 digits of precision, but then they round to an integer.

 

[BGbreeder]

My assumption is that you saw this in the CSV data downloaded from the PG&E. My understanding is that this is just an attempt to estimate how much power was used when the meter data was unavailable and it would be based on the valid meter readings before and after the missing data. There might be a some misallocation of the data across a TOU time rate boundary, but probably only a couple of cents worth.

This is similar to how they allocate the gas rates which change on the 1st of every month. If you used 47 therms and the billing period was 30 days with 11 in the last month and 19 in the current month then allocate 17.2333 (47*11/30) and 29.7667 (47*19/30) to the current month. It's frustrating because they actually have the data (sometimes I see this as estimated as well), but refuse to use it. It is also frustrating that the therm multiplier has 6 digits of precision, but then they round to an integer.

Shhhh! That is the big secret, they are still running COBOL software on an emulated IBM 370, with binary coded decimals that can't deal with floating point numbers.



BG

 

[Redhill_qik]

Shhhh! That is the big secret, they are still running COBOL software on an emulated IBM 370, with binary coded decimals that can't deal with floating point numbers.



BG

The PG&E black bill definitely looks like it came from mainframe running COBOL or FORTRAN77.