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Updating HW2.5 model 3 to HW3 without purchasing FSD?

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,067
1,303
Seattle, WA
I know they have seen the "loophole". If they handle it by telling you that you can't subscribe your 2016-2019 car because of the hardware on board, then they will get sued. Because it isn't a loophole- it's a promise they made to their customers. Calling it a loophole is a version of victim blaming. How was a buyer in 2017 supposed to know that Tesla would release 2 more HW versions (without ever telling customers)? Tesla was the one with all the information in this transaction and they have a duty to be transparent.

Given they are already proactively putting HW3 in many S/X cars when they are in for service, I believe they just know they will need to upgrade anyone that subscribes, and they will be happy to do so if you subscribe. This isn't even a "cost" for them- they have always had to carry this liability on their books, they have known for years that HW2/2.5 cars were going to need HW changes.

Whoever bought FSD back then in 2016 is eligible for the hardware upgrade... right? We are not talking about anyone who purchased FSD... or am I mis understanding that? The only people who would be subscribing are people who dont own it, and what they were told in 2016 has nothing to do with now, because they didnt buy it then... right?
Correct- if you bought FSD in 2016, you could get HW3 a year ago. This is all about HW2/2.5 cars that never purchased FSD, but are now interested in subscribing when that becomes available. Which could be any car bought October 2016-May 2019.

Remember, the law cares about damages. As long as you never try to buy FSD, you have no damages if your car doesn't actually have FSD hardware, so the false advertising doesn't cause monetary loss. The instant that I can't do something (like subscribe to FSD), then I have damages. Tesla has avoided this so far by doing upgrades whenever someone buys FSD. They'll need to do the same for subscriptions to the *exact* same software as well.

If Tesla does allow FSD purchases for HW2/2.5, but not subscriptions, what do you think their rationale will be that avoids "all cars have HW needed"?
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,067
1,303
Seattle, WA
Don't worry. They won't have SW that can do it on either HW version. I doubt they owe anything to anyone until it's out of "Beta"
If that's true, why did they begin upgrading cars that bought FSD to new HW once the beta sw started having feature differences? They don't owe them anything by your logic, so it was silly for them to waste that money.

Auto windshield wipers are still in beta, and have been since 2017, even though every car has been advertised as having them, Do you think Tesla could just remove them from all ~1M cars with them and say "sorry, those were in beta, we're now only testing them on HW4 cars until the beta is over."?

Beta has no real meaning in the eyes of the law unless it was clearly exposed at the time of purchase.
 
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Dan D.

Member
Dec 7, 2020
350
301
Vancouver, BC
If that's true, why did they begin upgrading cars that bought FSD to new HW once the beta sw started having feature differences? They don't owe them anything by your logic, so it was silly for them to waste that money.

Auto windshield wipers are still in beta, and have been since 2017, even though every car has been advertised as having them, Do you think Tesla could just remove them from all ~1M cars with them and say "sorry, those were in beta, we're now only testing them on HW4 cars."?
Why are auto windshield wipers in beta? SMH.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,067
1,303
Seattle, WA
The history of Tesla and auto wipers is nuts. A model S/X bought in October 2016 for $120K didn't even have them functional until early 2018. $100k cars, with auto wipers on the moroney sticker, not even trying to work for almost half of a lease period. All so they could save a few bucks on a sensor that they had already designed into the cars.

But this is the same company that shipped these cars without any kind of cruise control too. That was a fun couple months. And told us that FSD would "definitely" be here by July 2017.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,000
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The MCU1/MCU2 distinction does not apply. They never advertised a car in 2016 as being able to play Netflix or Beach Buggy Racing. Note that they did advertise it as having voice commands, which have basically stopped working on MCU1 cars, so they do have an issue there.

They did advertise cars as being able to full self drive without a hardware upgrade. I don't know what an acceptable feature difference is on "full self driving". If HW3 can go around a roundabout, but HW2.5 can't, well, then, clearly HW2.5 isn't FSD. Visualizations are different if they don't impact the actual ability of the car to drive itself.

The issue here is that Tesla sold and charged for FSD and cars with FSD hardware before they had a limited feature set defined. Here's what a car in 2016 was sold against:

They told everyone it has the hardware to "be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.". If they ever have SW that can do this one one HW set but not another, they owe owners a free hardware change, because that is what was sold to them as far back as 2016. If they don't, then I am 100% sure the courts will end up deciding. Maybe Tesla can get away with a feature difference if they argue it is a short term difference- "don't worry, we'll have FSD on your HW in 3 months" - but that sets them up for even more damages if it doesn't end up being true.

Tesla will have an issue when they go HW3 to HW4 also. They've really screwed themselves with the way they have advertised FSD HW capabilities of their cars.
For all versions, they have to meet the minimum they promised. But nothing says that HW3 can't do better than HW2.5, or HW4 can't do better than HW3. My point is more the expectation that some have that necessarily Tesla will always be obligated to provide upgrades for free, as long as there is some new hardware that does better, but that is not the case.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,067
1,303
Seattle, WA
Agreed. But what was promised for HW2 was "short and long trips at a safety level twice that of a human driver with no action required by a person in the driver's seat."

If they are doing that in HW4 but not HW3/2, they will have a really hard time denying upgrades unless they publish and stick to a very near term software roadmap. As it stands right now, they aren't even hinting that HW2 can do FSD in any way, and given HW3 is much closer to the promise (even though it is still miles away), and has actually delivered some value, they will have a hard time showing that a owner wasn't damaged by that misleading statement.

Remember, pre-HW3, cars had EAP and FSD as independent purchases. On HW2, there are zero feature differences between an EAP and FSD purchase right now. EAP has smart summon, lane keeping, etc.

The real reason that Tesla can easily afford to do FSD subscriptions for the same price for HW2 and HW3 cars is that they already have thousands of dollars of EAP from HW2 cars that most HW3 cars didn't pay (given it's FSD or nothing). Nothing says they have to give you a discount on a FSD sub just because you already have EAP, even though that subscription is giving you a much smaller feature bump than a car bought last week, and the customer-centric behavior would be that a FSD sub for someone with EAP should cost half as much as vs someone with nothing (like the upgrade works right now).
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
1,067
1,303
Seattle, WA
As if Tesla ever waited for regulatory approval. LOL.

Tesla changes HW2/2.5 cars to HW3 when you buy FSD outright.
Given they will advertise the subscription as an alternate way to get the exact same product, just on a per month basis, they will have no argument to stand on that HW2/2.5 is waiting for regulatory approval. Remember, according to Tesla's current advertising, FSD is just stopping for stop signs and stop lights. That cannot be done on HW2/2.5. (FSD Beta is a totally different thing, not not what you get if you pay for FSD today.)
 

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