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Vaclav Klaus: From Climate Alarmism to Climate Realism

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by WarpedOne, Mar 9, 2008.

  1. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    #1 WarpedOne, Mar 9, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2008
    Vaclav Klaus - From Climate Alarmism to Climate Realism

    This man should win the award, not the other one ...
     
  2. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I'd have to disagree. His idea of continuous growth is impossible without consequences.
    For example:
    More people fighting for fewer resources will be the result of that type of thinking.
    Endless procreation will eventually lead to a massive dieoff in one way or another. Voluntarily regulating growth and population now will improve living conditions for those already alive.
    Limiting emissions through better technology is a worthwhile goal regardless of global warming.
     
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  4. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    >> Endless procreation

    Well, the reality does not agree with you. The only practial solution to human population growth is economic developement. Who will have 10 kids if he has a fullfiling job that he enjoys and is sucessful in and is married to equally succesful partner? You get 10 kids when sex is the only joy and job of your life.

    Just look at the rate of population growth in countries at different levels of economic and social developement. More advanced countries have much lower growth rate or no growth at all. Here in Slovenia we had negative growth rate(falling number of population) for last 10 years straight.

    Are you willing to tell people they can only have 2 kids? If she gets pregnant again - you would force abortion or raise taxes on her? Is that what you are proposing? :mad:
     
  5. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Ironically we are getting better and better at keeping more people alive longer. Improved health-care, reduced smoking, better control of toxic substances and reduced pollution are some of the things keep the population up as well. Quite a quandary to balance the "preserve healthy life at all costs" to the problem of overpopulation.

    Elon was a producer on the film "Thank You for Smoking" (and even had his private plane featured in the movie). During the movie, the main character was asked why he would agree to be a spokesman for the cigarette industry (in an age when we know all too well of the dangers) and his whispered response "population control".
     
  6. Brent

    Brent Member

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    Bills & Melinda Gates' foundation supports improved health care and education for poor countries in hopes that raising these indicia will lower population growth rates. The argument seems to go against intuition, but I understand there are good studies underlying it.

    While nature has a way of achieving balance, it's not clear what the next major population control mechanism will be. In centuries past it has been famine, disease, plague, war, among others. We've pretty much solved the food problem, at least in the Occident (who could imagine in the 16th century that someday the problem would be obesity?!). Disease and plague are pretty well under control, aside from AIDS in a few countries. War may be with us forever, but one might hope the days of global conflict are behind us.

    The only big thing left that I can see now is climate change, which could reintroduce widespread famine. If so, the irony may be that we unwittingly cause our own population control mechanisms.
     
  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    That may be wishful thinking, or just luck of the past few generations.
    I think the medical establishment is all too aware that a plague could arise and they would not be able to stop it from running its' course. I suspect that ongoing population increases will make the chances greater. More chances for mutation, and more vectors to spread. We don't live in isolated pockets so much anymore.
     
  8. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    Who caused all previous ice ages? Should we go to church and confess our sins? Or should we only tax those dirty rich bastards for having more than we do?
     
  9. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    We need to wake up to the fact that a model based on endless growth is not sustainable. Population will not stop growing just because third worlders start living like Americans. 10 people in third world countries don't consume the resources of 1 American. What do you think will happen if 1 or 2 billion start consuming the way 300 million Americans do? We need to give incentives for people to have fewer children, including free birth control for all.
    The planet has limited resources and the more people competing for those resources the less to go around. War will be the end result of that competition, along with starvation and disease.
     
  10. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    #10 WarpedOne, Mar 10, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2008
    So we need to artificially limit the growth from the position of government power? To force people to do what WE think is good for them? Who is 'WE'? Selected few? Sorry, FASCISM is the name of the game.

    If current way of growth is not sustainable, some resources will become scarce, the price will rise and other cheaper resources will be found and the "growth way" will change. When Earth will not be enough anymore, we'll go elsewhere. Don't think we know everything and life won't ever change anymore. It is impossible to say what life will look like in 100 years. What is sure it is that it will be much more different from our ways that our life is different from the life 100 years ago.
    Developement is rapidly accelerating. One who tries to stop that, will only loose.

    If you really are into some wild thinking go look up transhumanism and singularity. And then honestly try to find reasons why it is impossible or why it won't happen sooner or later.

    You have starvation and disease NOW because of war for POWER. Wars for resources are long time gone. Knowledge and scientific development brought alternative sources for all resources. We need no war to get them anymore, only knowledge.

    All this global warming hysteria is only a way to gain even more power over people. To raise taxes and scare them for scared do not think.
     
  11. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    What do you think the US govt., (and others), have always tried to do by "spreading democracy", i.e. forcing people to do what we want? Making regulations that put a limit on growth is preferable to unchecked expansion that leads to pollution, disease, and war. You think it's ok that the smoke from China's coal plants dumps mercury on the US?
    Climate change, man made or not, could halt development and possibly make the earth uninhabitable. Many elements are in very limited supply on earth and there may not be suitable substitutes.
    Simple. Over population leading to diseases, and/or war could throw civilization back to the stone ages. Technological advances need capital, resources, and a population willing and able to support research. A simple economic depression could stifle research to a large extent. This idea that technology will always save us from ourselves is unfounded. Right now excessive growth in the US is leading us into a recession, maybe even a depression, which could be world wide. It's happened before, why do you think it can't happen again?


    You're kidding, right? What's the miracle resource that's available right now to replace cheap oil? I guess Iraq isn't sitting on an extremely valuable resource? I'm sure we still would have invaded if there were no oil there. Most wars are resource wars in one way or another.
    Right, because billions of humans dumping pollution into the atmosphere for the last 100 years couldn't have any effect on climate :rolleyes: It makes a lot of sense for the people in power to make up global warming so they can then cost businesses money trying to mitigate this imaginary effect. These same businesses that buy and pay for our leaders. Yeah, that crazy cartel of tree huggers that secretly rule the world are forcing poor big business to comply :rolleyes:
     
  12. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    So, this is the reason for global warming? Or was it CO2?
    Decide already what exactly you are against.


    I'm against political decisions that are based on pure speculation and propaganda and will help only selected few. Who benefited from Kyoto? What are its results?
     
  13. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I never said anything about mercury and global warming. It's just a small example of one consequence of unregulated population and industrial growth. That's what I'm against, unregulated growth around the world spewing out pollution, including increasing garbage and human waste. I can never understand why anyone would want more people on the planet than already exist. I've never been anywhere and said to myself, "I really wish there were more people here". Do you not realize that if there were half the people on the planet there would be twice as many resources for the rest of us?
     
  14. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Yeah! Shorter lines at Stabucks!
     

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