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Climate Change Legal Action

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You are still missing the point. People still smoke but the effects are known and you don't have tobacco companies telling you it isn't harmful. Because of that use is decreasing and fewer people have died. Similarly I don't see posters here asking for an immediate cessation of oil use. However, there are many ways we can mitigate climate change without destroying the world economy. Had Exxon been upfront about the impact of carbon emissions we could be much further along. We would still consume oil. As far as the economy, clean energy will is grown in it economic impact. Old industries die and are replaced by new ones that also employ people and drive the economy.

As far as poor people are concerned solar together with batteries is actually helping them more than oil since it doesn't require a grid. A decrease in demand for oil from the rich nations will drive oil prices lower.

Low energy prices are what helps everyone. If solar is the low cost great. The problem batteries help from day to night but not much from summer to winter.

I see the oil industry and the tobacco industry completely different. Tobacco doesn't have any redeeming value. Oil on the other hand has given us the modern life we enjoy today. Raising the price on something that currently almost everyone needs hurt low income folks the most. So if you tax oil or give subsidies to alternate energy it increases the overall cost of living.

I never could figure out why folks smoked. When I was young (I'm over 70) both my parents smoked and they new it was bad for them.They basically told me if I wanted to smoke go ahead but it was stupid. My mother quit but my father couldn't. So people have known for a long time smoking is bad and yet still do it.
 
I see the oil industry and the tobacco industry completely different. Tobacco doesn't have any redeeming value. Oil on the other hand has given us the modern life we enjoy today.

So we should forgive Exxon for their lies because we have a stronger addiction to their product?

Fraud is Fraud. If Exxon wanted the narrative to be that the benefits outweigh the costs then they shouldn't have lied about the costs.
 
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Low energy prices are what helps everyone. If solar is the low cost great. The problem batteries help from day to night but not much from summer to winter.

I see the oil industry and the tobacco industry completely different. Tobacco doesn't have any redeeming value. Oil on the other hand has given us the modern life we enjoy today. Raising the price on something that currently almost everyone needs hurt low income folks the most. So if you tax oil or give subsidies to alternate energy it increases the overall cost of living.

I never could figure out why folks smoked. When I was young (I'm over 70) both my parents smoked and they new it was bad for them.They basically told me if I wanted to smoke go ahead but it was stupid. My mother quit but my father couldn't. So people have known for a long time smoking is bad and yet still do it.
Two words: Cost externalities
 
So we should forgive Exxon for their lies because we have a stronger addiction to their product?

Fraud is Fraud. If Exxon wanted the narrative to be that the benefits outweigh the costs then they shouldn't have lied about the costs.

There are still many folks that do not believe Climate Change is catastrophic nor entirely caused by man. So if folks have a different opinion than you (and the majority) they are a fraud? I personally think Climate Change is real but do not agree with you that it will be a disaster. I firmly believe fossil fuels have been extremely beneficial to mankind. I would bet anything that there were some Exxon employees that thought climate change was real but others did not agree.
 
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There are still many folks that do not believe Climate Change is catastrophic nor entirely caused by man. So if folks have a different opinion than you (and the majority) they are a fraud?

You've misunderstood this thread...

Exxon didn't just reject the scientific conclusions of other scientists... they rejected the conclusions of THEIR scientists. That's not free speech... that's fraud and they need to held accountable.

What the tobacco companies did and what the fossil fuel industry has done is nearly identical but the damage fossil fuels have done is far greater. Why should the tobacco companies be punished but not the fossil fuel industry?

Even worse... the oil industry used climate change projections when planning arctic projects... so they were convinced enough by their own research but continued to deny it publicly.

The Tobacco industry was prosecuted under RICO not because they had different opinions from mainstream medicine on the risks of smoking... but because internal documents revealed that they actually came to the same conclusion but denied it publicly. Same with the oil industry. Exxon KNEW that their product was harmful but they continued to fund a misinformation campaign promoting concepts they KNEW were untrue. Same as the tobacco industry.

This has nothing to do with the oil industry rejecting climate science. They accepted the scientific consensus based on their own research... then funded efforts to convince the public otherwise. That's fraud.

It's the age-old question... 'what did they know and when did they know it?' Looks like Exxon knew in 1977 and continued to deny it for the next ~30 years... that's why there are AGs lining up to prosecute.
 
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Nation’s First Civil Lawsuit Over Climate Deceit Fingers ExxonMobil
October 15th, 2016 by Sandy Dechert

According to CLF President Bradley Campbell:

“ExxonMobil’s strategy of publicly denying the very risks its scientists have known for decades has direct impact on Greater Boston communities. ExxonMobil knowingly and unlawfully misled regulators about whether its Everett facility can withstand rising seas, more intense precipitation, and other climate impacts without spewing oil and other toxic pollutants into adjoining neighborhoods, the Mystic River, and the Boston Harbor….

For more than three decades, ExxonMobil has devoted its resources to deceiving the public about climate science while using its knowledge about climate change to advance its business operations. Communities were put in danger and remain in danger, all to cut costs for one of the most profitable corporations in the world.

See: Nation’s First Civil Lawsuit Over Climate Deceit Fingers ExxonMobil
and
http://www.clf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/CLF-v.-ExxonMobil-Complaint.pdf
 
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Update on US Federal and State cases:

In 2015, twenty-one youth from across the United States, age 8 to 19, filed a landmark constitutional climate change lawsuit against the federal government in the U.S. District Court for the District of Oregon. Also acting as a Plaintiff is world-renowned climate scientist Dr. James E. Hansen, serving as guardian for future generations and his granddaughter. Their complaint asserts that, in causing climate change, the federal government has violated the youngest generation’s constitutional rights to life, liberty, property, as well as failed to protect essential public trust resources.

On April 8, 2016, U.S. Magistrate Judge Thomas Coffin ruled in favor of the young Plaintiffs by denying the government and fossil fuel industry's motions to dismiss. While the ruling was a major victory for the Plaintiffs, it is now under review by U.S. District Court Judge Ann Aiken, who heard oral arguments on September 13, 2016. Judge Aiken announced she would try to release her decision within 60 days of the hearing, which would be mid-November. After which, the case will head either to trial or appeal.​

See: Landmark U.S. Federal Climate Lawsuit

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...a5/1465570630055/16.04.08.OrderDenyingMTD.pdf

State actions are proceeding in: Colorado, Maine, Massachusetts, Oregon, Pennsylvania and Washington

See: http://www.ourchildrenstrust.org/pending-state-actions

 
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Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change
On November 11, 2016 US District Judge Ann Aiken in Eugene, Oregon upheld the right of a group of young plaintiffs to sue their government over global warming.

See: https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...38292ddd1c9/1478813795912/Order+MTD.Aiken.pdf

The background to and implications of the decision are discussed in: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

I just vomited on my keyboard.

The lawsuit is against the office. It immediately transfers to President Toiad

Is that some kind of slur? Stay classy.
 
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Can you please elaborate?

I'll try. I am not a lawyer, so my comments are those of an interested amateur, and somebody that enjoys well reasoned and articulated arguments. I also enjoy reading good writing (an argument in favor of reading the Federalist Papers). So anybody construing a legal opinion - you get what you paid for, and what you got coming!


This is a very early stage of this lawsuit. Namely, we're far enough into it that the plaintiffs have created the case and filed it, and the defendants have filed their initial batch of motions to dismiss the case. There are a bunch of reasons to dismiss - do the plaintiffs have standing, have they been harmed, could the harm have been caused by the defendants, is there relief that the court can provide, and more. All of these have very specific technical meaning within the context of the law that I mostly find passably related to a common / lay person's understanding of the terms.

So one reason to read the motion is to learn more about these various ideas.

Part of why I find the motion interesting reading is that the whole thing could have been a single line (ok, not really), but the upshot is "motions to dismiss are denied". Much more interesting to me is that walk through each and every point, what are they, what is their basis in law, why do they apply or not apply.


A prominent component of the motion has to do with property rights and the public trust. Property rights are an interesting thing - in some quarters, just putting those two words together can create strong emotions and heated arguments. The motion will take you through a rather lengthy account of a component of property rights and the public trust (two strongly interlinked ideas), along with articulating limits and boundaries.

One of the ideas I found interesting - something I've understood without being able to put words to it - is that there are responsibilities on the shoulders of our government (both state and federal government) that can't be legislated away. The motion walks through some of those.


I'm mostly not articulating a conclusion. One idea I'll throw out though - if you believe property rights are important, and you also believe that government has a tendency to overreach on property rights, then one conclusion you might draw after reading the motion is that protection of your property rights (an important function of government) has been abandoned by our government in favor of policies that are exacerbating climate change. That a policy in favor of (I'll be imprecise, but directionally accurate) of "drill baby drill" is also a policy in favor of destruction of your property rights.


The judge takes 54 pages to say Motions Denied. I found every page worth reading.
 
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The DHS, and Secretary Johnson (in his official capacity) have been sued for the damage that has been caused to citizens because of expansive immigration policies and lax enforcement, and for not conducting an environmental analysis of the effect of their policies. The plaintiffs want transparency from the federal government and environmentally informed decision-making.

DHS Sued for Ignoring Environmental Effects of Mass Immigration

I hate it when that happens.