Vs VW Golf Type R

[Zoomit]

Zoomit, I appreciate you posting the link.

OK, perhaps I was hasty in saying it's a useless metric.
It does expose Turbo Lag, which I agree is highly useful.
It also demonstrates low end torque, which we know favors an EV.

However, it's not clear what gear they begin the 5mph rolling start in.

Automatics, I'm sure are in Auto Mode, which means 2nd and possibly even 3rd gear.
Seems like wrong Drive Mode (Economy/Sport/Track) or extended rolling at 5mph could taint the results.

For a manual;
Some cars may do better in 2nd, if it avoids a shift before 60.
Another car may do better in 1st, despite needing to shift.
3rd would be bad, for most cars, even if that is the gear needed to hit 60mph.
Do you think they use optimum starting gear for each car?

I think I appreciate EV performance as much as anyone here, so this is not about that.
What bothers me about EV is, having to lug around huge battery weight to get fast acceleration and long range.
Have you noticed, a 60 is 613lb lighter than a P85D (figure similar between 70 & P90D)?
Tesla Model S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's kind of like the American Muscle Car era where bigger engines kept going in cars, to the detriment of handling & braking.
I want to see EV's mature to the point, they have good handling (like a Golf-R, 911, BMW M3/4, etc).

The rolling start test is certainly not infallible, but it does seem like a more consistent measure of how a car performs in normal use than the traditional 0-60 run. C&D described the test this way:

"Since most owners will seldom subject their cars to brutal launch techniques, we also perform what we call a street-start acceleration test from 5 to 60 mph. While rolling with the car in gear, we floor the accelerator at 5 mph and shift quickly at the optimal shift point."
How Does C/D Test Cars? - Info
​

The immediate power application possible from electric motors will win over many enthusiasts. While their CG is generally low, EVs do have a lot of weight to manage. Like you, I'm looking forward to more maneuverable EVs.

It's possible the base RWD Model 3 will actually be the best handling of the bunch, since it's not saddled with the extra motor and battery weight of its faster accelerating and longer range brothers.

 

[Mad Hungarian]

Let's be careful here. The Golf R is very likely a much more capable track car ("it's own game") than a similarly priced Model 3.

Agreed. In fact I'm sure this is exactly why TEG posted it up for comparison. As to a number of folks here saying that the Golf R does not appeal to the same market I completely disagree, I think many enthusiasts looking for a fast, practical AWD sedan would for sure consider both. I myself was already planning on buying the new seventh gen Golf R or its Audi S3 cousin a few years back when it was announced, before discovering the Model 3. And if you think the R is quick out-of-the-box at $36K, for $600 you can reflash the ECU and you will now run 0-60 in 3.7, see here. I'm sure the Performance/Ludicrous options required to match or beat that are going to cost me a looottttt more. But I'm willing to break the budget and do it anyway because I'll finally be able to enjoy flogging a high performance car down a beautiful country road with no regrets about what it's doing to our climate, and will hopefully convince a lot of other folks (maybe some of driving modded Golf R's lined up at the lights next to me ) to discover same.

 

[Jayc]

Let's be careful here. The Golf R is very likely a much more capable track car ("it's own game") than a similarly priced Model 3.

I am sorry but how many Golf-R's are taken onto the track? 1%, 2% or even 10% ? Even 1% very doubtful. So we have to agree, that a majority of these cars are bought simply for their image.

But my point is that we are now starting to talk about Mid-range performance R cars alongside Tesla Model 3 which is an EV - that itself is amazing. If you look at the typical mindset of an ICE racer, the sort that worships clark-son & co., they come from a background where engine noise, number of tail pipes & size, number of badges on grill, the bone breaking suspension, etc. is what rules the world and now low and behold, here comes Tesla with a car that the whole family can go in, quite comfortably so, and also outrun ICE boy racers in daily driving.

I can understand that at top-end speeds especially in track racing, ICE will still have an advantage but the point is - who cares. You can drive a military armored jeep on the road claiming it is the safest on the planet but why bother? The other, and most important point that most people forget is, ICE tech revolution is almost over. Apart from small thermal efficiency improvements there is really nothing else to be discovered. In fact most of these ICE racer cars still have a decade or two old technology but better controlled by electronics. EVs on the other hand, are just beginning their journey especially with battery tech and in the next few decades there is great potential and discoveries to be made.

I predict that the top-end version of Second Generation Model S will become the fastest car on the planet in 0-60 times and two decades from now, they will have to create separate tracks for EVs and ICE because ICE will be so far behind that they cannot be raced together - Think back to the future and "Nostalgia drag racing"

 

[Mad Hungarian]

If you look at the typical mindset of an ICE racer, the sort that worships clark-son & co., they come from a background where engine noise, number of tail pipes & size, number of badges on grill, the bone breaking suspension, etc. is what rules the world and now low and behold, here comes Tesla with a car that the whole family can go in, quite comfortably so, and also outrun ICE boy racers in daily driving.

I AM that guy (although much as I love them, I nearly didn't forgive Clarkson & co. over that fiasco with the Roadster).
With the Model 3 Tesla has now taken away just about every excuse I could come up with for not previously considering EV's. And with the wide range of configurations and price points that will be offered I think you'll find that this car breaks every rule for how many market segments and owner types you can grab with one platform.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Eh it tends to be a better bargain than the Audi S3 (before they stopped offering the hatchback here).

I have an A3, and for ~$700, I was able to get similar performance to the S3, without the extra ~10K

(APR Stage 1 ECU and intake)

 

[wallet.dat]

I am sorry but how many Golf-R's are taken onto the track?

What does that have anything to do with anything else? I see this silly argument used over and over again, but where else would you be doing your racing -- on the street?

The other, and most important point that most people forget is, ICE tech revolution is almost over.

Yes, it's to the point where performance is largely limited by traction for either method of making power.

 

[Jason Bourne]

I have an A3, and for ~$700, I was able to get similar performance to the S3, without the extra ~10K

(APR Stage 1 ECU and intake)

I did an APR Stage 1 on an A4, and it is the BEST performance money spent. The turbo lag sucks, but once it's up to speed the car was a rocket. Plus it's half the cost of upgrades that give 1/4 of the power.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I did an APR Stage 1 on an A4, and it is the BEST performance money spent. The turbo lag sucks, but once it's up to speed the car was a rocket. Plus it's half the cost of upgrades that give 1/4 of the power.

My numbers match an out-of-the-box S3. I've done nothing cosmetically other than tint. It's fun to be in a "sleeper".

 

[Jason Bourne]

@ModelNforNerd
My engine started burning tremendous amounts of oil, so I ditched it. But had I kept it, I would have upgraded the brakes to an S3/S4 level to match the higher performance of the engine.

 

[zuwarrior14]

What does that have anything to do with anything else? I see this silly argument used over and over again, but where else would you be doing your racing -- on the street?

Since this topic is always brought up between track car and model 3, so I am always curious where are people coming from between both camps. I understand that EV cars tends to have high low end torque which utilizes a lot around city and entering the freeway. As far as ICE track cars, they can come more alive while driving in the track. Maybe there is a misconception between two camps. One argue that EV can utilize its power more in its life time than "Track Car's" thus coming out saying that "Track Car" appears not to utilize its advantage 99% of them. So why buy it if 99% of the time you won't maximize it. I am curious what is the merit of buying something that most of the times you won't maximize it. Please let me know your thoughts because I really want to see different aspects and where are your thoughts are coming from.

 

[Mad Hungarian]

I did an APR Stage 1 on an A4, and it is the BEST performance money spent. The turbo lag sucks, but once it's up to speed the car was a rocket. Plus it's half the cost of upgrades that give 1/4 of the power.

I know this story well, my '07 A4 is currently Unitronic Stage 2 HPFP and with around 275hp and 300 ft-lbs pulls like a freight train This will be the only thing I miss about ICE, the relative big-bang-for-buck performance improvements available, especially for turbocharged engines. I'm really hoping the mass numbers of Model 3's will spawn a whole new EV performance industry. I already see the start of it in some of the amazing efforts out there to hack the Model S's brain. Just being able to turn the ESC off would be awesome, I hate that Tesla won't allow this when so many other premium performance cars do.

 

[gregincal]

Automatics, I'm sure are in Auto Mode, which means 2nd and possibly even 3rd gear.

No way. 5 mph is basically creep speed in an automatic (your foot won't even be on the accelerator). It will be in 1st gear as well.

 

[Buzzz]

I sold my Stage 2+ MK6 Golf R 3 month after getting my Model S. I don't miss it at all for daily driving but I miss the lapping nights, it was a really fun car on the track.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

@ModelNforNerd
My engine started burning tremendous amounts of oil, so I ditched it. But had I kept it, I would have upgraded the brakes to an S3/S4 level to match the higher performance of the engine.

They seem to have addressed the oil burn in the new-gen EA888 2.0T

I haven't had any issues with burning off oil.

 

[wallet.dat]

I went in to a local VW dealership a couple weeks ago to buy a GTI S with Performance Package+DSG+4-door, but apparently that particular configuration is a unicorn in North America. I'll have to find something else to tie me over til my Mod3 arrives.

 

[Skryll]

R is not really that interesting. The newer generation VW Golf is the VW e-Golf. I love its off the line acceleration, always leaves those gas cars behind, also since I offset my charging use with Solar I don't care about careful acceleration, guilt free fun. For $25k after incentives it was not such a bad deal, but with its 90 mile range its an obvious replacement target for the Model 3 when it comes out. We put 18,000 miles on it since January 2015, and the gas car we thought would be our primary car is collecting dust and only being used when the electric is already out and about, or if we need to fit more than 5 people into the car. Once we tasted the sweetness of a modern electric drivetrain, we would never go back to legacy cars that shudder and whine and emit poisonous fumes, can't be charged over night in the garage, need oil changes and smog checks and gas station visit... I laugh at people saying 'cheaper gas prices are an inhibitor to electric driving' - once you know the convenience of turning on heater/ac from the phone while having breakfast and it warming up in the winter in the closed garage safely, and its driving dynamics, going back to gas cars is as attractive as turning in your iPhone for a cheaper landline. Just not going to happen.

 

[Jason Bourne]

They seem to have addressed the oil burn in the new-gen EA888 2.0T

I haven't had any issues with burning off oil.

Don't want to get too far OT in this thread, but I had to escalate my issue to the President of Audi North America.

 

[Jayc]

What does that have anything to do with anything else? I see this silly argument used over and over again, but where else would you be doing your racing -- on the street?


Yes, it's to the point where performance is largely limited by traction for either method of making power.

The point is the a majority of Golf Rs and the likes are never taken to the track, but you do see the odd inconsiderate macho character driving recklessly on the road with no consideration to other road users so yes, I see your dilemma - you really want to show everyone the track capabilities of these cars but don't have a place to do so other than on tracks. Can you see the hidden message behind the lines - track capabilities are pointless to a majority of us. And for the rest, it is mostly a struggle to find a suitable place. And when you do end up going to the track, you are easily overshadowed by the Nissan GTRs and the likes. On daily driving and on normal roads, these cars are no better than any other family saloon with a capable engine. No wonder most such characters drive recklessly on the road. If I were one, I would probably self explode in frustration.

 

[MasonM]

Well, this imagined comparo is about to get real. I'm selling my '17 Golf R before picking up my Model 3 next week.

I'm a little sad about it because I've grown to really enjoy my Golf R. (guiltily for the poor gas mileage it gets, but its so fun). But, onward to the future with the Model 3.

To touch on the real world application of launch controlled 0-60 times, its actually really easy to use. I can engage it in about 2 seconds of button pushing. And, it is really, really fast. And, I haven't "self exploded in frustration" even once! Amazing!

For ICE cars that have an easy to engage launch control, I'd say its fair to compare the 0-60 times instead of deferring to the 5-60. Launch Control evens the playing field for that initial acceleration as compared to the innate superiority of an electric motor's instant grunt.


Here's hoping the Model 3 has similar driving dynamics and fun included. I hear great things that I'll be able to verify soon!

 

[WarpedOne]

One thing is for sure - it won't have similar driving dynamics because it is a RWD with radically better weight distribution (Golf R: 59 : 41, Model 3: 48 : 52) and a bit less max power.