We must face facts - meat is the problem

[K.I.T.T.23]

Yep - humans can eat meat and survive. We are quite adaptable to various diets compared to most other animals. That has nearly zero bearing on what is the optimal diet. We can survive on tater tots and BBQ sauce. Survival is irrelevant. There are zero populations that eat high fat/meat diets that experience long lives. I suppose "long" lacks specifity.
The scientific consensus has picked the Mediterranean Diet as the optimal diet. Red meat is rare; fish/chicken moderate. That isn't vegan but it is a lot closer to it than average American diet. So you can hand wave all you want about B-12 or whatever for vegans but the reality is that science recommends lower meat consumption for health reasons alone. The average beef consumption in the US is 58.9 pounds or a 1/4 pounder over 4 times per week. I take "rare" of the Med diet to be once per month - so a 95% reduction.
I know plenty of vegans and none have tried to convert me.
That being said, the number of vegans in the UK quadrupuled in 5 short years ending in 2019. At that point 1.2% were vegan. I suspect the number has not been static over the last 4 years. So in a genetically and culturally similar country to the US, veganism has gone significantly over 1%.
Now, KITT, you have to admit that you are old and stuck in your ways. That doesn't mean everyone is.
I think we can all agree that we would be happy with a 95% reduction in US beef consumption. Doctors and environmentalist alike.

I think your post is in response to mine, so I am going to run with that.

• You (and @JRP3) seem to have missed my point regarding adaption and diets. Let me clarify: The statement of "we are herbivores" was made. This is false. We are an omnivore. This is part of a larger thread discussion regarding what we can eat and survive on... and what we should/could live on. We, as a species, adapt to our surroundings. Is it perfect every time? no. That said, it has resulted in varying physiologies. Some people process carbs better, some can't process meat, some cultures never adapted to drinking milk, and the Alaskan natives lived on meat and fat. Does that mean that these groups live longer or better? Maybe in some cases, not so much in others. The point is: we have adapted over the past few millennia, and some of us have adapted differently resulting in.... wait for it... different dietary needs!!!
• Agreed, the Mediterranean Diet is perfect for the majority of the population, it is very similar to what I live on (from my understanding of the dietary plan).
• No vegans try to get you to join their camp hu? Impressive. Not my experience; you are fortunate.
• What some Brits do across the pond on their island is of no consequence to me (I read doubled the vegans, but doesn't matter) though I know it is all the rage with half the US population. If what they do matters to you, sweet! Join them and go Vegan.
• Who you callin' old? Stuck in my ways? Let's discuss. I know my diet works for me, lived it for a long time, tried many things, and I have listened to a lot of folks that are a lot smarter than me. Here is where that phrase (stuck in your ways) has implications that are incorrect. My position is through education, not indoctrination, and it is flexible if something presents itself that will perform better/work better. Any idea or change will have to be able to supersede ~20+ years of dietary experience, performance and research. For example: lab grown meat. I am all over that. I LOVE the idea of something that is controlled and causes no harm. So suck in my ways? no sir... I wouldn't say that. Well grounded in science, facts, and experience? Yes.
• We can all be happy with a 95% reduction of beef consumption, cute, and a pie in the sky dream. Some math for ya: If magically, there was a 95% reduction by the US alone would result in an overall reduction of beef consumption world wide of ~18% Significant, but that cultural change would require a catastrophic event or something literally magical. Do you think China will happily follow? I think they will give you the middle finger. How about Europe? Maybe some countries... but Span and Germany are not as quick to pick up the vegan fork as the UK.

So, with that, I go back to what I have said to all the other advocates for global change in meat consumption. Realistically ground your desire/expectations. Understand that until a suitable substitute is developed, some meat consumption is required for the majority of us. Do people over-eat? Yes. Will things change in the future? Definitely. It will be an amazing ride, enjoy it.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

47 Percent of Vegans Do It Because Modern Food Is a Health Nightmare

A new study found that nearly half of all vegans dropped animal products for health reasons. What does this say about meat and dairy?

vegnews.com

In fact, the study found that 47 percent of participating vegans are classified as health-conscious because they consume more vegetables, fruit, protein, and milk alternatives, cook more often with fresh ingredients, and exercise more. This group was more likely to state that they went vegan for the health aspect, or a mixture of health, environmental, and animal welfare aspects. Notably, the people in the health-conscious group had been living vegan for a significantly longer time, and there were significantly more female participants, more students, and nonsmokers in this dietary pattern. The other 53 percent are classified as the convenience food group because they were more likely to consume convenience foods such as pre-packaged meals, snacks, refined grains, and desserts. The study noted that individuals in this group were more likely to be vegan for animal welfare aspects.

is VegNews a Vegan news outlet? interesting. Aside from the obvious bias nature of the report, navigating modern food is rough. It is probably a bit easier if we allow some meat and animal products on our plate... non-processed of course!

 

[mspohr]

is VegNews a Vegan news outlet? interesting. Aside from the obvious bias nature of the report, navigating modern food is rough. It is probably a bit easier if we allow some meat and animal products on our plate... non-processed of course!

No one is banning meat. Stop with this nonsense.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

No one is banning meat. Stop with this nonsense.

What? Who said anything about banning meat? I am confused...

Now I get it! I had to read what I wrote again to figure out how you came out with that as your interpretation.
"allowing meat" = non-vegan lifestyle.
"not allowing meat" = vegan lifestyle.

Obviously no one is banning meat.

 

[mspohr]

What? Who said anything about banning meat? I am confused...

It is probably a bit easier if we allow some meat and animal products on our plate...

Who is going to "allow" some meat?

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Who is going to "allow" some meat?

just edited my reply, should make more sense to you now.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Oof, Vegans go hard against the Ethical Omnivore. Curious: what do you think? Check out and article:

The Curious Case of the Vegan War on Regenerative Animal Agriculture: Featuring Mic the Vegan

This particular installment of The Curious Case of the Vegan War on Regenerative Agriculture is very near and dear to my heart. My addressing "Mic the Very Confused Vegan Propagandist" is a certainly few years

www.ethicalomnivore.org

 

[JRP3]

Mic seems much more credible. Her claims about ethanol production have nothing to do with veganism thus irrelevant. The largest mono crops are for feeding livestock. Free range animal feeding is not scalable, as has been pointed out here repeatedly. Yes methane half life is shorter around 9 years, (which doesn't mean it's all gone in that time), but it's a much more powerful greenhouse gas, about 25+ times CO2 depending how you count it.
https://cen.acs.org/environment/greenhouse-gases/Atmospheric-levels-methane-post-record/100/i13

Methane and climate change – Global Methane Tracker 2022 – Analysis - IEA

Global Methane Tracker 2022 - Analysis and key findings. A report by the International Energy Agency.

www.iea.org

Mic's video she didn't want to link:

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Mic seems much more credible. Her claims about ethanol production have nothing to do with veganism thus irrelevant. The largest mono crops are for feeding livestock. Free range animal feeding is not scalable, as has been pointed out here repeatedly. Yes methane half life is shorter around 9 years, (which doesn't mean it's all gone in that time), but it's a much more powerful greenhouse gas, about 25+ times CO2 depending how you count it.
https://cen.acs.org/environment/greenhouse-gases/Atmospheric-levels-methane-post-record/100/i13

Methane and climate change – Global Methane Tracker 2022 – Analysis - IEA

Global Methane Tracker 2022 - Analysis and key findings. A report by the International Energy Agency.

www.iea.org

Mic's video she didn't want to link:

I am sure you liked what Mic had to say He confirms your bias!

I didn't know that methane didn't last that long. With all the hoopla about it, I figured it was right up there with CO2... interesting. Found this article, says 10 years, so along the same lines, but with a "relax folks" vibe instead of "no more beef!!". I didn't realize that we peaked our Dairy/Cattle production in the 1970's and we (The US) has been steadily declining since. We are down (just the US mind you) by 14m cows?! could you imagine what the environmental impact was back then? Good thing we couldn't measure it... likely would have sent us into a panic. Glad it all is long gone now.

3 myths debunked: Animal agriculture's real impact on the environment

New research has recently debunked some of the most critical and long-standing myths surrounding animal agriculture. Learn more about the truth with Alltech.

www.alltech.com

 

[mspohr]

I am sure you liked what Mic had to say He confirms your bias!

I didn't know that methane didn't last that long. With all the hoopla about it, I figured it was right up there with CO2... interesting. Found this article, says 10 years, so along the same lines, but with a "relax folks" vibe instead of "no more beef!!". I didn't realize that we peaked our Dairy/Cattle production in the 1970's and we (The US) has been steadily declining since. We are down (just the US mind you) by 14m cows?! could you imagine what the environmental impact was back then? Good thing we couldn't measure it... likely would have sent us into a panic. Glad it all is long gone now.

3 myths debunked: Animal agriculture's real impact on the environment

New research has recently debunked some of the most critical and long-standing myths surrounding animal agriculture. Learn more about the truth with Alltech.

www.alltech.com

Wasting time reading these cattle people spreading misinformation about cattle.
They say CO2 has a lifetime of 10 years. All other credible sources say 30 years.
Dairy cattle have decreased because they feed them hormones to increase production. No net reduction in methane.
They hope their new calculations will become reality soon... fat chance.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Wasting time reading these cattle people spreading misinformation about cattle.
They say CO2 has a lifetime of 10 years. All other credible sources say 30 years.
Dairy cattle have decreased because they feed them hormones to increase production. No net reduction in methane.
They hope their new calculations will become reality soon... fat chance.

• Kind-a like wasting time reading about vegan people spreading misinformation about vegan stuff hu? Figure fair is far, I'll link the "Ethical Omnivore/Beef" stuff, you link the Vegan.
• No... not according to @JRP3 's post (just above mine) looks like there are a couple reliable sources. I'll give ya pass on that one though.
• So you are saying they belch/fart more methane than they did, 50 years ago. Source? or just your conjecture.
• "Fat chance" ya think? Kind-a like data saying EV will replace ICE... People don't like new data, especially those that identify strongly with the old (old being Vegan/ICE in this case). Adjusting the evaluation of metrics is always slow and difficult for those that have a vested interest. That said, I am not sure where I will put my money regarding the new calculations. I am curious to see where it ends up, what they say, and why. I am rooting for lab grown meat personally, but this could be a band-aid fix until tech catches up. Kind-a like the hybrid was for ICE to EV over the past 20 years.

 

[mspohr]

• Kind-a like wasting time reading about vegan people spreading misinformation about vegan stuff hu? Figure fair is far, I'll link the "Ethical Omnivore/Beef" stuff, you link the Vegan.
• No... not according to @JRP3 's post (just above mine) looks like there are a couple reliable sources. I'll give ya pass on that one though.
• So you are saying they belch/fart more methane than they did, 50 years ago. Source? or just your conjecture.
• "Fat chance" ya think? Kind-a like data saying EV will replace ICE... People don't like new data, especially those that identify strongly with the old (old being Vegan/ICE in this case). Adjusting the evaluation of metrics is always slow and difficult for those that have a vested interest. That said, I am not sure where I will put my money regarding the new calculations. I am curious to see where it ends up, what they say, and why. I am rooting for lab grown meat personally, but this could be a band-aid fix until tech catches up. Kind-a like the hybrid was for ICE to EV over the past 20 years.

More milk production requires more inputs of feed, fertilizer, etc. which means more CO2 and N2O. Same pollution per unit of milk.

 

[JRP3]

I am sure you liked what Mic had to say He confirms your bias!

My bias for factual data, yes. I notice you ignored the 4 points of misinformation I pointed out that she used to "support" her bias.

I didn't know that methane didn't last that long. With all the hoopla about it, I figured it was right up there with CO2... interesting. Found this article, says 10 years, so along the same lines, but with a "relax folks" vibe instead of "no more beef!!".

So you just ignore the increased potency of CH4 and only focus on the shorter half life?

I didn't realize that we peaked our Dairy/Cattle production in the 1970's and we (The US) has been steadily declining since.

Even the beef industry prove your claims to be false, or at best misleading. Per head may be down but meat production has kept increasing. Fewer but larger cows still consume and emit more.

National Beef Wire

National Beef Wire is an interactive platform for the display of real-time pricing and news relevant to the cattle and agriculture industries.

beef2live.com

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

More milk production requires more inputs of feed, fertilizer, etc. which means more CO2 and N2O. Same pollution per unit of milk.

I see your logic, but my guess is it is not linear, thus not pollution = quantity. Likely there is an exponent aspect to the increase (aka, some increase but not a 1-to-1) Here is an example:

If I have a cow that produces 50lbs of meat, it will consume... for the sake of argument, 500 joules of energy.
If I have 2 cows that each produce 50lbs of meat, thus 100lbs, they would consume 1,000 joules of energy.

If I genetically modified a single cow to produce 100lbs of meat, they would not consume 1,000 joules of energy. Likely, somewhere between 700-800 joules as we do not have to support the same bone density (more, but not double) as well as organ usage... We are getting way down the rabbit hole here, but I am sure you get the point.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

My bias for factual data, yes. I notice you ignored the 4 points of misinformation I pointed out that she used to "support" her bias.

So you just ignore the increased potency of CH4 and only focus on the shorter half life?



Even the beef industry prove your claims to be false, or at best misleading. Per head may be down but meat production has kept increasing. Fewer but larger cows still consume and emit more.

National Beef Wire

National Beef Wire is an interactive platform for the display of real-time pricing and news relevant to the cattle and agriculture industries.

beef2live.com

I was excited for your reply

• I didn't watch the video, I wasn't commenting on it, just digitally rolling my eyes at the obvious "of course you agree with the vegan advocate"
• No, I didn't ignore it. I was simply surprised by the fact that it had such a short life time of impact. take it as a win brother. I was impressed by your data.
• Sorry, I missed something, what are my claims? I said there are less cows today than there were 50 years ago... Glad we couldn't measure it because we would have paniced. Is that what you say is wrong?

 

[JRP3]

Sorry, I missed something, what are my claims? I said there are less cows today than there were 50 years ago... Glad we couldn't measure it because we would have paniced. Is that what you say is wrong?

I didn't realize that we peaked our Dairy/Cattle production in the 1970's

We didn't, as I explained. Head of cattle is not the same as production, i.e. 2 300lb cows is not more than 1 600lb cow.

 

[mspohr]

I see your logic, but my guess is it is not linear, thus not pollution = quantity. Likely there is an exponent aspect to the increase (aka, some increase but not a 1-to-1) Here is an example:

If I have a cow that produces 50lbs of meat, it will consume... for the sake of argument, 500 joules of energy.
If I have 2 cows that each produce 50lbs of meat, thus 100lbs, they would consume 1,000 joules of energy.

If I genetically modified a single cow to produce 100lbs of meat, they would not consume 1,000 joules of energy. Likely, somewhere between 700-800 joules as we do not have to support the same bone density (more, but not double) as well as organ usage... We are getting way down the rabbit hole here, but I am sure you get the point.

Just wrong

American dairy consumption achieves a record in 2021

The average American consumed 667 pounds of dairy on a milkfat basis in 2021 versus 539 pounds in 1975 when data was first established.

www.dairyfoods.com

World Beef Consumption By Year

The world is projected to consume 134.28 billion pounds of beef in 2018, up 2.98 billion pounds from 2017.

beef2live.com

 

[DrGriz]

A half life of 9 years doesn't mean it's gone in 10. It means half of it is gone in 9 years, 3/4 is gone in 19 years, and so on.

And when it is 10x worse than CO2 as far as global warming, it means this year's methane will be quite potent and around in significantly dangerous amounts for much more than 10 years.

Also, it's good that US cattle production is down, but that is in part due to the fact that we import up to 20% of our beef from Canada, Mexico and Brazil.

As a meat eater, I try to be very aware of the impact of what I consume. I do try to provide our family with wild game, because, while not scalable (thankfully) I feel it is holistic, to an extent.

I don't pretend that meat doesn't have a significant environmental impact. It certainly does.

 

[JRP3]

I do try to provide our family with wild game, because, while not scalable (thankfully) I feel it is holistic, to an extent.

In fact it can be helpful in cases of excessive nuisance populations, i.e. non native wild boar in the US and even native deer in areas where there are no natural predators left.

 

[DrGriz]

In fact it can be helpful in cases of excessive nuisance populations, i.e. non native wild boar in the US and even native deer in areas where there are no natural predators left.

I focus on whitetail deer (as opposed to mule deer) which are considered noxious invasive species here, along with crows, raccoons and irrigated crops.