We must face facts - meat is the problem

[David_Cary]

I find it interesting that "only" reducing worldwide beef consumption by 18% (if US went down by 95%) is considered insignificant.
That is freaking HUGE.
The often used argument for a lot of these things is that China (or whomever) won't do it so why shouldn't we. It is childish - really toddler-like as an argument. We certainly can't ask in treaty negotiations for anything if we don't get our own house in order.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

@mspohr : No, you are wrong. Point: 1 cow producing the same meat/milk consumes less than 2 cows producing the same as the 1 cow. Also, your statistics may be right, and they are! But that wasn't the point. You are also sourcing an earnings report... of course they make it look like we consumed 1.5 lbs of dairy per day... now we consume 1.8lbs? That is a lot of milk, butter, and eggs! Even the chart is made in a way to emphasize the increase to make a .3lb increase look like a 5 fold increase... And this is just an average?! what is the standard deviation?! This is an impossible number, as demonstrated by many-a YouTuber. But you will ignore this of course doesn't confirm your bias or support your stance. You also said that our beef consumption is up? but... I thought the earlier statements were that vegan lifestyle is doubling year over year? Gota pick one and run with it. Those two don't add up.

Here is a non-earnings number... though maybe only slightly more reliable; says we meet the "recommended dairy of 2-3 cups... or .75lbs per day:

Energy and Nutrient Intake of Americans according to Meeting Current Dairy Recommendations

Most Americans do not meet dairy food recommendations from the 2015 Dietary Guidelines for Americans (DGA). This study assesses differences in nutrient intake between Americans who meet recommendations for dairy intake and those who do not, using data ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

@DrGriz You are correct on half life, I understand the concept. Part of our reduction is by import and also by genetic manipulation. I see these as good things. You should check out Ethical Omnivore, sounds like we are like minded on being responsible with our meat consumption.

@David_Cary You missed the point... let me see if I can clarify. A "MAGICAL" intervention, of epic proportion, that is all but unfeasible without natural disaster or disease (like a mutation of Alpha-gal syndrome that became contagious maybe?) that occurred in the US would cause a reduction of 18% world wide. To quote (you said insignificant) I said "Significant, but that cultural change would require...". Then you go on to imply my understanding of Chinese politics and society is childish... You're cute. China, as a whole, consumes a lot of meat lol. Remember the term Wet Market when we thought that is where COVID started (how silly)? Well, those are a thing, and part of Chinese culture. They are not going to stop because the flower powered Vegan movement from the US says that eating animals is bad (though the Vegans say they will). In case you need a refresher, here are some links. It will take generations for China to change en mass. And that is not.. lol, childish (You make me giggle); it is an observed objective fact about Chinese cultural change. It is slow. I would love to sit down and talk about global politics, relations, national goals... but we don't have time nor the forum for that, but your "get your room in order before you change the world" (love Jordan Pederson btw) analogy, which is perfect for the individual does not work on the world stage. It is a different type of interaction. Kind-a like how individuals can't float a debt 10-20x their annual income, but a government can. The rules are different.

I am excited to see what you guys come up with next

The coronavirus likely came from China’s wet markets. They’re reopening anyway.

Should wet markets be banned? It’s more complicated than it seems.

www.vox.com

China unveils new list of animals that can be farmed for meat

COVID-19 is thought to have originated at a Wuhan wet market.

abcnews.go.com

 

[mspohr]

@mspohr : No, you are wrong. Point: 1 cow producing the same meat/milk consumes less than 2 cows producing the same as the 1 cow. Also, your statistics may be right, and they are! But that wasn't the point. You are also sourcing an earnings report... of course they make it look like we consumed 1.5 lbs of dairy per day... now we consume 1.8lbs? That is a lot of milk, butter, and eggs! Even the chart is made in a way to emphasize the increase to make a .3lb increase look like a 5 fold increase... And this is just an average?! what is the standard deviation?! This is an impossible number, as demonstrated by many-a YouTuber. But you will ignore this of course doesn't confirm your bias or support your stance. You also said that our beef consumption is up? but... I thought the earlier statements were that vegan lifestyle is doubling year over year? Gota pick one and run with it. Those two don't add up.

Here is a non-earnings number... though maybe only slightly more reliable; says we meet the "recommended dairy of 2-3 cups... or .75lbs per day:

Energy and Nutrient Intake of Americans according to Meeting Current Dairy Recommendations

Most Americans do not meet dairy food recommendations from the 2015 Dietary Guidelines for Americans (DGA). This study assesses differences in nutrient intake between Americans who meet recommendations for dairy intake and those who do not, using data ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

@DrGriz You are correct on half life, I understand the concept. Part of our reduction is by import and also by genetic manipulation. I see these as good things. You should check out Ethical Omnivore, sounds like we are like minded on being responsible with our meat consumption.

@David_Cary You missed the point... let me see if I can clarify. A "MAGICAL" intervention, of epic proportion, that is all but unfeasible without natural disaster or disease (like a mutation of Alpha-gal syndrome that became contagious maybe?) that occurred in the US would cause a reduction of 18% world wide. To quote (you said insignificant) I said "Significant, but that cultural change would require...". Then you go on to imply my understanding of Chinese politics and society is childish... You're cute. China, as a whole, consumes a lot of meat lol. Remember the term Wet Market when we thought that is where COVID started (how silly)? Well, those are a thing, and part of Chinese culture. They are not going to stop because the flower powered Vegan movement from the US says that eating animals is bad (though the Vegans say they will). In case you need a refresher, here are some links. It will take generations for China to change en mass. And that is not.. lol, childish (You make me giggle); it is an observed objective fact about Chinese cultural change. It is slow. I would love to sit down and talk about global politics, relations, national goals... but we don't have time nor the forum for that, but your "get your room in order before you change the world" (love Jordan Pederson btw) analogy, which is perfect for the individual does not work on the world stage. It is a different type of interaction. Kind-a like how individuals can't float a debt 10-20x their annual income, but a government can. The rules are different.

I am excited to see what you guys come up with next

The coronavirus likely came from China’s wet markets. They’re reopening anyway.

Should wet markets be banned? It’s more complicated than it seems.

www.vox.com

China unveils new list of animals that can be farmed for meat

COVID-19 is thought to have originated at a Wuhan wet market.

abcnews.go.com

Again, the logic of your word salad escapes me.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Again, the logic of your word salad escapes me.

I figured. It isn't really for you, you have a fixed-mindset. It is for others that read this discussion.

 

[JRP3]

Your stream of consciousness brain dumps aren't exactly informative or readable by anyone.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Your stream of consciousness brain dumps aren't exactly informative or readable by anyone.

You are good! It wasn't meant for you, and nothing there had anything to do with anything you have said. You would have had to read and follow the past 3 pages to get it.

If I were you; I wouldn't waste my time. You are set in your ways and not open to alternate ideas

 

[JRP3]

I'm open to concise data. You are simply unable to provide such.

 

[mspohr]

Partial substitution of red or processed meat with plant-based foods and the risk of type 2 diabetes - Scientific Reports

High consumption of red and processed meat has been associated with increased type 2 diabetes (T2D) risk. These kinds of diets are also environmentally unsustainable. We examined a modeled association between a partial substitution of red meat or processed meat with plant-based foods (legumes...

www.nature.com

Partial substitution of red or processed meat with plant-based foods and the risk of type 2 diabetes Download PDF Article Open Access Published: 11 April 2023 Partial substitution of red or processed meat with plant-based foods and the risk of type 2 diabetes Mirkka Maukonen, Kennet Harald, Niina E. Kaartinen, Heli Tapanainen, Demetrius Albanes, Johan Eriksson, Tommi Härkänen, Pekka Jousilahti, Seppo Koskinen, Essi Päivärinta, Tiina Suikki, Hanna Tolonen, Anne-Maria Pajari & Satu Männistö Scientific Reports volume 13, Article number: 5874 (2023) Cite this article 618 Accesses 40 Altmetric Metricsdetails Abstract High consumption of red and processed meat has been associated with increased type 2 diabetes (T2D) risk. These kinds of diets are also environmentally unsustainable. We examined a modeled association between a partial substitution of red meat or processed meat with plant-based foods (legumes, vegetables, fruit, cereals, or a combination of these) and T2D risk among Finnish adults. We used pooled data from five Finnish cohorts (n = 41,662, 22% women, aged ≥ 25 years, 10.9 years median follow-up with 1750 incident T2D cases). Diet was assessed by a validated food frequency questionnaire. In the substitution models, 100 g/week of red meat or 50 g/week of processed meat were substituted with similar amounts of plant-based substitutes. Cohort-specific hazard ratios (HRs) were estimated by Cox proportional hazards multivariable model and pooled using a two-staged random-effects model. We observed small, but statistically significant, reductions in T2D risk in men when red or processed meat were partially substituted with fruits (red meat: HR 0.98, 95% CI 0.97–1.00, P = 0.049, processed meat: 0.99, 0.98–1.00, P = 0.005), cereals (red meat: 0.97, 0.95–0.99, P = 0.005, processed meat: 0.99, 0.98–1.00, P = 0.004) or combination of plant-based foods (only processed meat: 0.99, 0.98–1.00, P = 0.004) but not with legumes or vegetables. The findings of women were similar but not statistically significant. Our findings suggest that even small, easily implemented, shifts towards more sustainable diets may reduce T2D risk particularly in men.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

I'm open to concise data. You are simply unable to provide such.

Did you read the sources? Do you understand data analytics/statistical analysis? Do you understand where I stand on all of this? No problem if not, but it will result in comprehension issues. You probably don't care though, and that is fine

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Partial substitution of red or processed meat with plant-based foods and the risk of type 2 diabetes - Scientific Reports

High consumption of red and processed meat has been associated with increased type 2 diabetes (T2D) risk. These kinds of diets are also environmentally unsustainable. We examined a modeled association between a partial substitution of red meat or processed meat with plant-based foods (legumes...

www.nature.com

Partial substitution of red or processed meat with plant-based foods and the risk of type 2 diabetes Download PDF Article Open Access Published: 11 April 2023 Partial substitution of red or processed meat with plant-based foods and the risk of type 2 diabetes Mirkka Maukonen, Kennet Harald, Niina E. Kaartinen, Heli Tapanainen, Demetrius Albanes, Johan Eriksson, Tommi Härkänen, Pekka Jousilahti, Seppo Koskinen, Essi Päivärinta, Tiina Suikki, Hanna Tolonen, Anne-Maria Pajari & Satu Männistö Scientific Reports volume 13, Article number: 5874 (2023) Cite this article 618 Accesses 40 Altmetric Metricsdetails Abstract High consumption of red and processed meat has been associated with increased type 2 diabetes (T2D) risk. These kinds of diets are also environmentally unsustainable. We examined a modeled association between a partial substitution of red meat or processed meat with plant-based foods (legumes, vegetables, fruit, cereals, or a combination of these) and T2D risk among Finnish adults. We used pooled data from five Finnish cohorts (n = 41,662, 22% women, aged ≥ 25 years, 10.9 years median follow-up with 1750 incident T2D cases). Diet was assessed by a validated food frequency questionnaire. In the substitution models, 100 g/week of red meat or 50 g/week of processed meat were substituted with similar amounts of plant-based substitutes. Cohort-specific hazard ratios (HRs) were estimated by Cox proportional hazards multivariable model and pooled using a two-staged random-effects model. We observed small, but statistically significant, reductions in T2D risk in men when red or processed meat were partially substituted with fruits (red meat: HR 0.98, 95% CI 0.97–1.00, P = 0.049, processed meat: 0.99, 0.98–1.00, P = 0.005), cereals (red meat: 0.97, 0.95–0.99, P = 0.005, processed meat: 0.99, 0.98–1.00, P = 0.004) or combination of plant-based foods (only processed meat: 0.99, 0.98–1.00, P = 0.004) but not with legumes or vegetables. The findings of women were similar but not statistically significant. Our findings suggest that even small, easily implemented, shifts towards more sustainable diets may reduce T2D risk particularly in men.

Great article, and interesting study. I am always skeptical about self administered questioners , especially those which are used for a decade long+ study. Self perception tends to be inaccurate, but I would assume the evaluation team factored that in as best they could. This looks quite thorough, a good evaluation of life style, smoking, exercise, gender... all very relevant factors. Maybe a family history would have been good to include? I am not familiar with the genetic impact of T2D.

Looks like red meat was "Statistically insignificant" which is not surprising, and processed meat... well we know that is a problem, this just reinforces that. For reference from your article (under results):

• Both red meat and processed meat were positively associated with T2D risk, but the finding was statistically significant only for processed meat (P=0.010, model 2)

Great article! I am glad you went scholarly this time. Stay away from that processed meat, it is no good for you! Grab a steak or a vegetable substitute (if that is your jam) instead

 

[mspohr]

Metabolome and Gut Microbiome in Individuals With Major Depressive Disorder vs Control Individuals

This metabolome-wide association study evaluates the association of metabolic factors and the human gut microbiome and metabolome with major depressive disorder.

jamanetwork.com

Major depressive disorder (MDD) is linked to disruptions in energy and lipid metabolism, possibly caused by the interplay of the gut microbiome and blood metabolome, new research suggests.

As we wait to establish causal influences through clinical trials, clinicians should advise patients suffering from mood disorders to modify their diet by increasing the intake of fresh fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, as these provide the required fuel/fiber to the gut microbiota for their enrichment, and more short-chain fatty acids are produced for the optimal functioning of the body," study investigator Najaf Amin, PhD, DSc, senior researcher, Nuffield Department of Population Health, Oxford University, United Kingdom, told Medscape Medical News.

 

[mspohr]

Use of antibiotics in farming ‘endangering human immune system’

The blanket use of antibiotics in farming has led to the emergence of bacteria that are more resistant to the human immune system, scientists have warned. The research suggests that the antimicrobial colistin, which was used for decades as a growth promoter on pig and chicken farms in China, resulted in the emergence of E coli strains that are more likely to evade our immune system’s first line of defence.

This is potentially much more dangerous than resistance to antibiotics,” said Prof Craig MacLean, who led the research at the University of Oxford. “It highlights the danger of indiscriminate use of antimicrobials in agriculture. We’ve accidentally ended up compromising our own immune system to get fatter chickens.”

 

[mspohr]

Colon Cancer Is Rising Among Younger Adults. Here’s What to Know. Colon Cancer Is Rising Among Younger Adults. Here’s What to Know.


Having certain health conditions like obesity or incorporating certain foods or drinks into your diet (such as alcohol or red or processed meats like sausage, pepperoni or hot dogs) is also known to increase risk, as is a sedentary lifestyle
.Following a healthy diet. Diets high in processed meats (like hot dogs, bacon and some lunch meats) or red meats (like beef, pork and lamb) have been shown to increase the risk of colorectal cancer; those rich in fruits, vegetables and whole grains have been shown to be protective. Even small changes, like choosing fiber-rich fruits and vegetables as snacks over chips, or incorporating “meatless Mondays” into your weekly meal plan, can make a difference.

 

[DrGriz]

Colon Cancer Is Rising Among Younger Adults. Here’s What to Know. Colon Cancer Is Rising Among Younger Adults. Here’s What to Know.


Having certain health conditions like obesity or incorporating certain foods or drinks into your diet (such as alcohol or red or processed meats like sausage, pepperoni or hot dogs) is also known to increase risk, as is a sedentary lifestyle
.Following a healthy diet. Diets high in processed meats (like hot dogs, bacon and some lunch meats) or red meats (like beef, pork and lamb) have been shown to increase the risk of colorectal cancer; those rich in fruits, vegetables and whole grains have been shown to be protective. Even small changes, like choosing fiber-rich fruits and vegetables as snacks over chips, or incorporating “meatless Mondays” into your weekly meal plan, can make a difference.

It isn't so much the meat, as it is the processing.

Processed foods in general are the devil. Look at the rise in type II diabetes since the 1970s. There's no question what caused that.

 

[JRP3]

TLDR: Animal based low carb diets have worse results over time, plant based low carb better results.

 

[JRP3]

2 studies, similar training results from plant based and animal based protein debunks the myth about animal protein superiority.

High-Protein Plant-Based Diet Versus a Protein-Matched Omnivorous Diet to Support Resistance Training Adaptations: A Comparison Between Habitual Vegans and Omnivores - PubMed

NCT03907059. April 8, 2019. Retrospectively registered.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusion: A high-protein (~ 1.6 g kg-1 day-1), exclusively plant-based diet (plant-based whole foods + soy protein isolate supplementation) is not different than a protein-matched mixed diet (mixed whole foods + whey protein supplementation) in supporting muscle strength and mass accrual,

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022316623126800

Conclusions​

Omnivorous and vegan diets can support comparable rested and exercised daily MyoPS rates in healthy young adults consuming a high-protein diet. This translates to similar skeletal muscle adaptive responses during prolonged high-volume resistance training, irrespective of dietary protein provenance.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

2 studies, similar training results from plant based and animal based protein debunks the myth about animal protein superiority.

High-Protein Plant-Based Diet Versus a Protein-Matched Omnivorous Diet to Support Resistance Training Adaptations: A Comparison Between Habitual Vegans and Omnivores - PubMed

NCT03907059. April 8, 2019. Retrospectively registered.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022316623126800

Your phrase "debunk" (typically means to say the norm is/was false/wrong, right?) is incorrect. What was true, may not be today due to developments. Until recently, there was no debate; plant based protein was inferior. That said, technology changes. Updated products/supplements, may not follow this logic for this next generation. These studies are great, and some outstanding information.

• Key phrases used in the first article, "under investigation" as well as using "untrained young men". The gains at this stage of muscular development are an interesting point to measure. From my experience, seeing many young men start/stop fitness training, those 6 months are... insane. The gains they experience are near super-human. Also, if their dietary discipline is on point the results are even greater. I would be more curious to see what a sustained 5-10 year result would be for an individual that exclusively took in plant based protein supplements vs someone who just took what was the best recommended product for their needs. To say that "if you are a young male, taking on their first (aka untrained) gym regimen you can use either plant based or animal product protein supplements and expect similar results" sounds logical and correct today. To say that a trained expert would see the same results after 5 - 10 years of training... that would be a study I would be interested in.
• Regarding the second article, Historically, it was true. There were no supplements that didn't use animal products that could support comparable strength/muscular growth to animal products. They just hadn't been developed. Currently though, that is not the case. There are many plant based alternatives! I would be curious to see how this next generation of gym rats performs.

I am optimistic. The newer products tend to take 2 steps forward, and one step back, but overall they are better than their predecessors. Personally, I give products 2-5 years. I like to see the studies. Right now, it appears that plant based is approaching parody with animal products. When they are better I may adopt a change, but I don't use supplements like I used to... no need at my age/career stage. I am excited to see where this goes!

 

[mspohr]

Freud: approaching parody

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

@mspohr

 

[JRP3]

What was true, may not be today due to developments. Until recently, there was no debate; plant based protein was inferior. That said, technology changes.

There was an ongoing debate, only amplified recently by "carnivore" types. Technology has not changed the human ability to absorb plant proteins. These studies simply reinforce a long standing truth. The misinformation you've accepted as "fact" came from misleading attempts to ignore the truth by picking a single plant and claiming the protein was not "complete", which while true in some cases, ignores the fact that nobody eats only one plant.