K.I.T.T.23
Member
You really can't get over the abstinence analogy hu. Maybe it is better than you think.
Education is one way, that is true, but doesn't marketing and corporate agenda set that back? maybe even counteracts that logic completely?
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We must face facts - meat is the problem
- Thread starter mspohr
- Start date
Education is one way, that is true, but doesn't marketing and corporate agenda set that back? maybe even counteracts that logic completely?
K.I.T.T.23
Member
I don't like to bring religion into discussions like this, because it opens up another can of worms. Belief structures tend to support biases, and like the vegan movement; those bias studies lead to poor research/science.
I do agree, we are designed/evolved to be omnivores. We crave meat (like a teen and sex... that one is for you @mspohr), or at least the majority of us do. To say all meat is unhealthy and bad for us is intuitively incorrect. Balance is required, as it is for everything in life.
No one is forcing you to eat only vegetables.
You can ignore the science and eat anything you want.
Some people crave meat. Others are disgusted by it.
Some people can read and follow science. Others follow their "intuition".
What is the "balance" between eating something that is bad for you and not eating bad stuff?
K.I.T.T.23
Member
O no see, I adhere to the science! Biology, experience and testing have scientifically proven, for my body, that a healthy balance of meat, vegetables and a little rice/pasta is perfect. Blood work and body composition say I am correct. This is the proven scientific process for an individual. It is empirical.
You sir, tell me to ignore the science/history/testing. To trust that YOUR version. Which is why it is frustrating when you dance around questions, but I just chalk it up to bias and zealotry. You don't seem to be very openminded. kind-a goes against your quote I think
K.I.T.T.23
Member
You are right, and for those that don't like meat (I assume you are in that camp) then don't eat it. It probably isn't good for you!
So, intuition is a guide. Not always correct, but tends to lead an individual down the right path. If something makes sense, that is a good place to start.
Balance... I don't think you get the idea, and that is ok.
K.I.T.T.23
Member
Just saw this, funny how this stuff pops up. Here is some Science on Intuition. I wonder: do you have "intuition" that tells you meat is bad because for you it is? And, it is easy to draw the conclusion, that if meat is bad for you, then it is for everyone? There are many studies that say so! And... there are many that say it isn't.
Like you linked a video (I think it was yours) about Low Carb vs Low fat diets. An interesting study, and the purpose of the study was also interesting, though I think the conclusions were flawed. Low carb SHOULDN'T be a lifestyle. It is a way to re-balance (see what I did there?) your diet if your BMI got out of control. Used properly it is a great tool. Also, low fat is not a good idea. fats are good! If we don't eat any fat, we tend to compensate with carbs... and that is not good. Balance my friend, balance. IMHO, they should have had a third control group that had a balanced diet and compared numbers.
Anyways, here is a quick read on the science of intuition:
Like you linked a video (I think it was yours) about Low Carb vs Low fat diets. An interesting study, and the purpose of the study was also interesting, though I think the conclusions were flawed. Low carb SHOULDN'T be a lifestyle. It is a way to re-balance (see what I did there?) your diet if your BMI got out of control. Used properly it is a great tool. Also, low fat is not a good idea. fats are good! If we don't eat any fat, we tend to compensate with carbs... and that is not good. Balance my friend, balance. IMHO, they should have had a third control group that had a balanced diet and compared numbers.
Anyways, here is a quick read on the science of intuition:
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Instant loss of credibility when referencing unproven myth. Some religions believe vegetarianism is what was intended.
K.I.T.T.23
Member
Sadly I agree with you, referencing faith in a scientific discussion is not a good stance.
Scientifically, we are omnivores. We have evolved to eat and process animal and plant material. This is indisputable. The PETA papers (among others) that argue that we are herbivores are incorrect and flawed; this is due to their inherent bias. We can process raw, fresh meat (see Sushi) plant life, cooked meat, and our digestive systems are well adapted. No Herbivore can process raw and cooked meat like we can. Example: a herbivore of any kind is incapable of sustaining themselves on a pure protein/fat diet; we can. Similarly, a carnivore is incapable of sustaining itself on a pure plant diet, but we can (see vegans/vegetarians). Prolonged exposure to the opposing food source causes organ damage and eventually death; though in small quantities it does little/no harm and may actually be beneficial to both herbivores and carnivores.
I did some digging and interestingly, herbivores may actually need to consume some meat for nutrients. While rare, it has been observed in the wild and has raised some questions. Similarly, carnivores do typically eat some plant life (like cats and grass), also for digestion and additional nutrients. Makes a lot of sense!
God is a woman who loves all animals and mother earth and would never harm them.
zoomer0056
Active Member
I've heard some define this as just an available door to get out, but most chickens in the house can't even find the door.
I don't know why we're trying figure out "healthy chicken". There is no such thing.
Even if you have free range organic chickens eating only pure organic free range bugs from your yard you still end up with meat that contains unhealthy cholesterol, saturated fat and is contaminated with enteric bacteria.
The Link Between Western Diet and Prostate Cancer? New Study Points to Meat and Dairy
A new study suggests that avoiding unhealthy Western diet foods such as high-fat dairy and processed meats could be the best strategy to prevent prostate cancer.
vegnews.com
An unhealthy Western diet that includes high-fat dairy products and processed meat could increase the risk of developing aggressive prostate cancer, according to a new study published in the medical journal BJU International.
This thread has gone a lot of different directions I must say. I totally agree that we have evolved to eat and process plant and animal material, the biggest reason I choose not to is due to the environmental effects 1st, and then the fact that we evolved to eat very little animal material second (health reasons). Modern diets have drastically strayed from what our body's evolved to eat since the dawn of farming and industrial meat production. I think you kind of elude to this above in this post. We evolved in a time where survival was dependent on a small portion of fat, sugar, etc. being the difference of life or death in a world where food competition was fierce and non meat sources of fat and protein were hard to come by. My body tells me I should hit that 2 lb bag of tator tots with bbq sauce and call it a day, my intelligence tells me that's probably not a wise decision. Likewise, I see the damage we are doing to this planet by meat production (be it industrial or small farmed) and again, my intelligence through research informs me this planet can't support it's population with meat consumption either mechanized or small farmed so I'm not going to be a part of it. Yes, I want to survive and am not going to jump off a cliff to "better the world", that's not my motivation, but it's a small thing really to switch to a plant based diet to increase the chance there is food sustainability. You'll save a lot of money to buy tesla stock as a bonus (good time to buy low by the way). I still will eat fish/meat on occasion when there is a special event or the circumstances leave little choices. I'm not disgusted by it at all. it's merely a decision I make out of my attempt at being a realist in our world. I do enjoy your opinions and arguments as I always look forward to good hearted debates.
K.I.T.T.23
Member
K.I.T.T.23
Member
It really has (deviated). Vegans (not all of course, just some) seem to really try to get us to to "convert", which just isn't going to happen 99% of the time, especially not in some random forum on TMC lol.
- I can agree, most typical modern diets include a lot of unhealthy fats, carbs, etc.
- I disagree with your assessment that we evolved to survive on a small portion of fat sugar etc. To the contrary, we evolved to adapt to the local food source. It is well documented that humans living in different environments have adapted physiology. A great example of that is natives to the north that live on a strictly protein/fat diet. They have a unique genetic adaptation to process such a diet and live very long and healthy lives! That is an extreme example, and many other populations have made much smaller adaptations to different dietary standards.
- Our meat industry does need a change. There are many ways to do it! But saying "just don't eat meat" is not a feasible solution.
- I assume your analogy to "my body says to eat taters" is a rebuttal to my statement that I know what my body likes, and it likes some meat. My diet, which was required due to my military service (not standard, not going to provide more details) required rigorous training as well as physical maintenance. I know what my body needs. I spent 21 years fine-tuning my diet and regimen. No one, not a single person in my unit ever was vegan. It wasn't possible. Such performance can't be maintained by such a diet, not for the long term. Now that I am retired, I do relax my diet and such, but not to the extent of fast-food and junk. For my physiology, to maintain performance, health, and BMI, a mix of vegetables, meat, and some grain/starch is required. If I cut out the meat I will see a reduction in muscular mass. This is not conjecture, or something from a YouTube video, it is from experience.
- That is all to say, your dietary goals are likely different. Your physiology is different. A pure plant based diet may be perfect for you, and enjoy! It isn't for me, and to try and push it on people (not that you are Falcon) with the "it is the only way to save the planet, and eating meat is mean!" is wrong... just wrong.
- Can we do better with our meat production? hell yeah.
- Do we all need to go Vegan? F-no.
@1965Falcon Thank you for the constructive debate and stance!
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Not exactly, they do have the adaptation to avoid going into Ketosis on a meat heavy diet, (sorry Keto freaks), but they also are not particularly healthy. That false claim came long ago from some explorer who did no long term study of the people at all.
Extreme Nutrition: The Diet of Eskimos*
The traditional inuit (or eskimo) diet is mythologized as a high-fat, heart-healthy diet and is part of the reason that fish oil is sold as a health food.
www.forksoverknives.com
Yep - humans can eat meat and survive. We are quite adaptable to various diets compared to most other animals. That has nearly zero bearing on what is the optimal diet. We can survive on tater tots and BBQ sauce. Survival is irrelevant. There are zero populations that eat high fat/meat diets that experience long lives. I suppose "long" lacks specifity.
The scientific consensus has picked the Mediterranean Diet as the optimal diet. Red meat is rare; fish/chicken moderate. That isn't vegan but it is a lot closer to it than average American diet. So you can hand wave all you want about B-12 or whatever for vegans but the reality is that science recommends lower meat consumption for health reasons alone. The average beef consumption in the US is 58.9 pounds or a 1/4 pounder over 4 times per week. I take "rare" of the Med diet to be once per month - so a 95% reduction.
I know plenty of vegans and none have tried to convert me.
That being said, the number of vegans in the UK quadrupuled in 5 short years ending in 2019. At that point 1.2% were vegan. I suspect the number has not been static over the last 4 years. So in a genetically and culturally similar country to the US, veganism has gone significantly over 1%.
Now, KITT, you have to admit that you are old and stuck in your ways. That doesn't mean everyone is.
I think we can all agree that we would be happy with a 95% reduction in US beef consumption. Doctors and environmentalist alike.
The scientific consensus has picked the Mediterranean Diet as the optimal diet. Red meat is rare; fish/chicken moderate. That isn't vegan but it is a lot closer to it than average American diet. So you can hand wave all you want about B-12 or whatever for vegans but the reality is that science recommends lower meat consumption for health reasons alone. The average beef consumption in the US is 58.9 pounds or a 1/4 pounder over 4 times per week. I take "rare" of the Med diet to be once per month - so a 95% reduction.
I know plenty of vegans and none have tried to convert me.
That being said, the number of vegans in the UK quadrupuled in 5 short years ending in 2019. At that point 1.2% were vegan. I suspect the number has not been static over the last 4 years. So in a genetically and culturally similar country to the US, veganism has gone significantly over 1%.
Now, KITT, you have to admit that you are old and stuck in your ways. That doesn't mean everyone is.
I think we can all agree that we would be happy with a 95% reduction in US beef consumption. Doctors and environmentalist alike.
Peter Singer: The Simplest Way to Change the Planet’s Fate Opinion | Peter Singer: The Simplest Way to Change the Planet’s Fate
Boycotting this monstrous abuse of billions of animals each year is a powerful reason for not eating meat, but the outsize contribution of meat and dairy products to climate change is for me now an equally urgent part of shifting to a plant-based diet. But we need not be hard-line about avoiding all animal products. If everyone chose plant-based foods for just half their meals, we would have fewer animals suffering, and a tremendously better shot at avoiding the most dire consequences of climate change.
Meat and dairy production are major sources of methane, a powerful greenhouse gas. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change calculates that releasing into the atmosphere a ton of methane will, over a century, raise the temperature of our planet by 28 times as much as releasing a ton of carbon dioxide. That would be bad enough, but the impact is even more lopsided in the shorter term: Because methane breaks down much more rapidly than carbon dioxide, over 20 years, that ton will warm the planet as much as 84 tons of carbon dioxide.
Climate change isn’t the only reason that a decision to stop eating animals makes a fitting Earth Day resolution. Forty percent of the clearing and burning of tropical forests is to create pasture for cattle grazing, the largest driver of deforestation of the Brazilian Amazon. In addition to the substantial carbon emissions, the destruction of tropical forests threatens mass extinctions, including the loss of species still unrecorded. Much of the remainder of the cleared land is used for growing soy, more than three-quarters of which will be fed to animals for meat and dairy production, a process that wastes most of the crop’s food value.
Boycotting this monstrous abuse of billions of animals each year is a powerful reason for not eating meat, but the outsize contribution of meat and dairy products to climate change is for me now an equally urgent part of shifting to a plant-based diet. But we need not be hard-line about avoiding all animal products. If everyone chose plant-based foods for just half their meals, we would have fewer animals suffering, and a tremendously better shot at avoiding the most dire consequences of climate change.
Meat and dairy production are major sources of methane, a powerful greenhouse gas. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change calculates that releasing into the atmosphere a ton of methane will, over a century, raise the temperature of our planet by 28 times as much as releasing a ton of carbon dioxide. That would be bad enough, but the impact is even more lopsided in the shorter term: Because methane breaks down much more rapidly than carbon dioxide, over 20 years, that ton will warm the planet as much as 84 tons of carbon dioxide.
Climate change isn’t the only reason that a decision to stop eating animals makes a fitting Earth Day resolution. Forty percent of the clearing and burning of tropical forests is to create pasture for cattle grazing, the largest driver of deforestation of the Brazilian Amazon. In addition to the substantial carbon emissions, the destruction of tropical forests threatens mass extinctions, including the loss of species still unrecorded. Much of the remainder of the cleared land is used for growing soy, more than three-quarters of which will be fed to animals for meat and dairy production, a process that wastes most of the crop’s food value.
47 Percent of Vegans Do It Because Modern Food Is a Health Nightmare
A new study found that nearly half of all vegans dropped animal products for health reasons. What does this say about meat and dairy?
vegnews.com
In fact, the study found that 47 percent of participating vegans are classified as health-conscious because they consume more vegetables, fruit, protein, and milk alternatives, cook more often with fresh ingredients, and exercise more. This group was more likely to state that they went vegan for the health aspect, or a mixture of health, environmental, and animal welfare aspects. Notably, the people in the health-conscious group had been living vegan for a significantly longer time, and there were significantly more female participants, more students, and nonsmokers in this dietary pattern. The other 53 percent are classified as the convenience food group because they were more likely to consume convenience foods such as pre-packaged meals, snacks, refined grains, and desserts. The study noted that individuals in this group were more likely to be vegan for animal welfare aspects.