We must face facts - meat is the problem

[David_Cary]

Living in an area where you can have backyard chickens will mostly mean that you need to drive longer distances to work and shop and entertain etc. So it isn't really a solution for the masses. We are less damaging to the environment when we live in closer quarters. Walking or biking to work while raising backyard chickens just doesn't scale very well.

So just eat less or no meat. It is really pretty simple. We would save billions in health care costs as a side benefit.

 

[JRP3]

. We are less damaging to the environment when we live in closer quarters.

That depends. Working from home in a rural setting has very low impact and doesn't concentrate waste and pollutants. All food and materials in cities has to be brought in from elsewhere and all waste has to be exported.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

The solution is easy... Just don't eat meat.

Yeah... that isn't going to happen. Reality is that some of us have the luxury of making that choice while others don't, and some (actually most) of us don't want to eat vegies for life.

Your solution is as effective as telling a teen that abstinence is the best choice. Maybe you are right, but it is better to ensure a safe environment and alternative solutions/precautions.

This issue which is similar in ways, requires a broader approach. The "just don't do it" response is not sufficient.

 

[JRP3]

Yeah... that isn't going to happen. Reality is that some of us have the luxury of making that choice while others don't, and some (actually most) of us don't want to eat vegies for life.

Basically the same argument used against switching to EV's. The fact is industrial agriculture is the only reason meat consumption can be as high as it is and that's not sustainable. "Free range" doesn't work in high volume so less meat consumption is the only answer. That doesn't mean zero but it does mean a large reduction.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Living in an area where you can have backyard chickens will mostly mean that you need to drive longer distances to work and shop and entertain etc. So it isn't really a solution for the masses. We are less damaging to the environment when we live in closer quarters. Walking or biking to work while raising backyard chickens just doesn't scale very well.

So just eat less or no meat. It is really pretty simple. We would save billions in health care costs as a side benefit.

Kind of a red herring argument (Health, environmental etc). We are going to eat chicken. They are one of the most environmentally friendly sources of meat. The video I replied to was regarding mass low-cost poultry farms and their issues.

To your point that applies: Backyard chickens are allowed in Colorado Springs (where I live) depending on HOAs. Many people here actually do have backyard chickens. There is no issue with smell or disease. The city is built/managed in a way to minimize environmental impact. They do scale if promoted properly.

If other cities adopted a similar structure, the reliance on cheap mass-produced poultry farms would dwindle quickly.

 

[mspohr]

Yeah... that isn't going to happen. Reality is that some of us have the luxury of making that choice while others don't, and some (actually most) of us don't want to eat vegies for life.

Your solution is as effective as telling a teen that abstinence is the best choice. Maybe you are right, but it is better to ensure a safe environment and alternative solutions/precautions.

This issue which is similar in ways, requires a broader approach. The "just don't do it" response is not sufficient.

Yes, you have the "freedumb" to damage your health and the environment but you might want to think about it and consider changing your behavior.
A vegan diet is a safe, healthy alternative.

 

[JRP3]

If other cities adopted a similar structure, the reliance on cheap mass-produced poultry farms would dwindle quickly.

How many chickens can you raise in an average backyard operation and how much will they produce for a family? A friend in a rural area has about 5-6 that he keeps for eggs, says they are kind of tough when they die of old age, and obviously would need to be replenished often if eaten regularly.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Yes, you have the "freedumb" to damage your health and the environment but you might want to think about it and consider changing your behavior.
A vegan diet is a safe, healthy alternative.

You are like the parent doubling down on abstinence. Lol good luck bud. Great way to advocate for responsible living.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

How many chickens can you raise in an average backyard operation and how much will they produce for a family? A friend in a rural area has about 5-6 that he keeps for eggs, says they are kind of tough when they die of old age, and obviously would need to be replenished often if eaten regularly.

Ya know, I am not sure. I know that I get eggs from a few friends, their chickens lay more eggs than they can eat from time to time. I also have another friend out here that slaughters/prepares chickens, I get some of my meat from him. I don't raise any, I just buy some of the extras before I go to the grocery store for others. Due to my HOA I can't have any chickens sadly.

So some have extra, some probably don't? Wouldn't it be awesome if more people did it? People like me might not have to go to the grocery store at all for poultry!

 

[JRP3]

Let's say a family ate 2 chickens per week, (a half chicken is the normal portion sold at BBQ's). Seems as if 8 weeks is the normal age for slaughter of free range chickens so you'd need a pretty large flock to keep up with that demand. Doubt it's practical for most.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Let's say a family ate 2 chickens per week, (a half chicken is the normal portion sold at BBQ's). Seems as if 8 weeks is the normal age for slaughter of free range chickens so you'd need a pretty large flock to keep up with that demand. Doubt it's practical for most.

Duno, but I think attempting it is more effective than just saying "don't eat meat" and "it will never work" Maybe it isn't the best solution, but trying different possible/feasible solutions may lead to an industry change, and it may also lead us to the right solution.

What do you think? Give something like this a shot? Another idea? How would you approach the problem? Or are you in the "Just don't eat meat" camp and there is no further intellectual discussion to be had as we are at an ultimatum style solution rather than constructive development.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Also wanted to add @JRP3 , half a chicken is an option, but not the standard, take it from a meat eater. For example: I eat 2-3 chicken thighs for lunch daily. Or sometimes I will eat a single chicken breast (depends on dietary goals). eating half a chicken would be a bit much, and I am a big guy. Typically if I buy meat at... say Boston Market, I would get a quarter dark or light (again, depending on goals). Eating more than that is likely glutinous.

I can't speak for most people, but from my perspective half a chicken is not the norm. I think, (again, for me) a single chicken would last me 4 days, assuming I ate quarter dark, quarter light, and then the other half. My wife is mostly vegetarian, so she wouldn't eat much but the eggs (she doesn't like the texture of most meat) so we might need what... 6 chickens? 8? to raise, slaughter, and produce eggs I think, though I don't know. I would probably produce an excess of eggs and trade for some meat if that was the society we lived in (without industrial poultry), or maybe I would eat more eggs and less meat in that case.

 

[JRP3]

What do you think? Give something like this a shot?

Sure but it's clearly not scalable and not a solution. The largest populations live in cities. Eating less meat is the solution and it's really easy, and healthy.

 

[JRP3]

Also wanted to add @JRP3 , half a chicken is an option, but not the standard, take it from a meat eater.

As I said it is the standard at BBQ's, half chicken or half chicken with sides, (potatoes, cole slaw, roll), and your free range chickens aren't going to be the industrial monsters from factory farms. I can eat a half chicken no problem and I'm not large.

 

[mspohr]

You are like the parent doubling down on abstinence. Lol good luck bud. Great way to advocate for responsible living.

Abstinence is a stupid analogy.
You can have sex and stay healthy if you use birth control, condoms, etc.
You can't stay healthy (and protect the environment) if you continue to eat meat.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

As I said it is the standard at BBQ's, half chicken or half chicken with sides, (potatoes, cole slaw, roll), and your free range chickens aren't going to be the industrial monsters from factory farms. I can eat a half chicken no problem and I'm not large.

True, and I think I could also eat half, maybe a whole chicken if I was really hungry! I just don't... maybe I would during a celebration? But even then, I don't like how I feel when I over eat (especially carbs... I would rather eat half a chicken than a bunch of processed carbs/sugar) so I just don't. I can't speak for others though.

Maybe I need to ask a better question (can't get the right answer without asking the right questions).

You and @mspohr keep saying "eat less meat". Ok, how do you propose this? Societal change? Government mandates? Something else?
People are not going to eat less because we want them to, and to go back to my teen abstinence analogy; telling someone it is a bad idea and to not do it doesn't work, and it may actually make the problem worse. How do you implement this change constructively?

 

[mspohr]

True, and I think I could also eat half, maybe a whole chicken if I was really hungry! I just don't... maybe I would during a celebration? But even then, I don't like how I feel when I over eat (especially carbs... I would rather eat half a chicken than a bunch of processed carbs/sugar) so I just don't. I can't speak for others though.

Maybe I need to ask a better question (can't get the right answer without asking the right questions).

You and @mspohr keep saying "eat less meat". Ok, how do you propose this? Societal change? Government mandates? Something else?
People are not going to eat less because we want them to, and to go back to my teen abstinence analogy; telling someone it is a bad idea and to not do it doesn't work, and it may actually make the problem worse. How do you implement this change constructively?

It's called education. It's a slow tedious process and some people are resistant.
If you explain to people that meat is bad for your health and bad for the environment (as well as being bad for the animals), some people will understand and change their behavior. Other people will continue to damage their health out of ignorance.
Some people still smoke cigarettes and have other unhealthy habits. They are stupid.
(Your abstinence analogy is stupid.)

 

[JRP3]

Ok, how do you propose this? Societal change?

Yes, which as mspohr mentioned requires education. Plant foods are cheaper and healthier, (in general). There is a reason plant based food options are growing, because people want them. Some people might need to wait until plant based options are indistinguishable from animal products which I expect will happen across the board at some point, it's just chemistry.

As I've mentioned some products are already there as far as I'm concerned, Impossible burger and sausage, and Beyond Burger Spicy breakfast sausage. Put that on an English muffin with Just Egg and maybe a slice of plant based Follow Your Heart cheese and you have a less greasy sausage McMuffin and egg.

 

[Unclepaul]

God designed us to be Omnivores. We are capable of consuming many plants and animals.

Prudent modern eating means to optimize vegetables & fruits while limiting our consumption of Meat, however many of us are motivated to eat meat because of taste, satiation, and custom.

It is a huge problem when Vegitarinasm becomes a religion and belief system than compells us to force everyone else to only eat veggies and fruits. Lots of meat eaters live healthy and full lives. Many vegetarians suffer from lack of certain minerals and amino acids. They refuse to eat a balanced diet due to their beliefs.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Abstinence is a stupid analogy.
You can have sex and stay healthy if you use birth control, condoms, etc.
You can't stay healthy (and protect the environment) if you continue to eat meat.

you are as graceful as a puppy on ice, cute, but fumbling aimlessly.

And here is where I say "no, you are wrong" because I eat meat. I am healthy. as a matter of fact, if you have seen some of my other posts to others on this thread, the typical negative impacts of meat eating are not a concern for me due to my genetic lotto results.