Some folks really want FSD, others can't see how Tesla can charge for it (in its current state), and why does it go up in price when it should be going down over time.
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What would you pay for FSD, if anything?
- Thread starter SilentWarp
- Start date
Flawed poll. At this time there is no such thing as FSD.
- Tesla sells and offers a subscription service for FSD Capability Package.
- Tesla offers a FSD Beta City driving test program.
- Full Self Driving (FSD) L4 or L5 is still aspirational and probably years away.
EVRider-FL
Well-Known Member
Where’s the subscription option in the poll? I paid for FSD before (much lower price), but I bought a new car now I would subscribe instead.
srs5694
Active Member
I voted $1k, but that's for the FSD package as it exists today. The FSD-on-city-streets beta functionality is worth $0, at most, IMHO; it's a beta program, after all. I find it's more stressful to use it than to drive manually. As I've quipped elsewhere, the term "FSD" officially expands to "Full Self-Driving," but a better expansion is "Flaky Student Driver."
The FSD package includes other features, as shown in the screen shot that @SilentWarp posted, and some of those features have value right now, so the FSD package as a whole is worth more than the FSD-on-city-streets functionality as it exists now. Most of those features are cool tricks, but some are genuinely useful.
In the future, if and when FSD-on-city-streets becomes a benefit rather than an added source of stress, then the feature may be worth real money. I'm skeptical that it would ever be worth the $12k that Tesla is currently charging for it (in 2022 dollars), but of course, in practice that depends on what price the market will bear.
The FSD package includes other features, as shown in the screen shot that @SilentWarp posted, and some of those features have value right now, so the FSD package as a whole is worth more than the FSD-on-city-streets functionality as it exists now. Most of those features are cool tricks, but some are genuinely useful.
In the future, if and when FSD-on-city-streets becomes a benefit rather than an added source of stress, then the feature may be worth real money. I'm skeptical that it would ever be worth the $12k that Tesla is currently charging for it (in 2022 dollars), but of course, in practice that depends on what price the market will bear.
RTPEV
Active Member
I agree that the poll is flawed in the sense that it's not clear whether you are asking what you would pay for as it exists now, or what you think it will be worth eventually. And the reason that distinction becomes important is how far in the future do you think its value will increase? If it was "this year" or "next year" as Elon keeps saying, then yes, maybe $12K (or more!) is appropriate. The justification for the price increases is increasing confidence (on Elon's and Tesla's part, not the general public's) that true FSD is right around the corner.
I paid $5K for Enhanced Autopilot when I bought my car. That was slightly more than I really thought it was worth (especially since the equivalent feature more or less comes with the higher trim levels of other vehicles, other than perhaps the auto lane change), but I figured I would roll it into the purchase price. If I had to set what I consider a fair price for essentially autosteer, TACC and auto lane change, I would say $2500.
Then I took advantage of a fire sale on FSD when it was offered for $2K. While I was sure that FSD was not "right around the corner" as they advertised it to be even then (early 2019 timeframe), I was willing to part with $2K so that eventually I would be able to have the car drive mostly unattended on long trips...I'd even be happy if it only worked on highways. Plus, I felt I was doing my part to fund FSD development (remember at that time, Tesla was still taking heavy losses).
So I guess in that timeframe, the amount I was willing to pay for an eventual FSD (and in my mind, it was still at least 5 years away), was $4500 (the $2500 I had already paid above and beyond what I thought was a fair price for EAP and the $2000 extra I paid for FSD). I'll even say $5000.
But since that time, things have changed. Now, of course, they got rid of EAP (huge mistake) and the only way you can get access to auto lane change (I think) is to buy the whole FSD package, even though FSD doesn't exist yet, and having seen how slow progress has been on FSD, I'm even less confident it's just around the corner. Sure, FSD capability and the ability to add your car to the Tesla robotaxi network is potentially very valuable. $12K may even be a bargain. But nobody knows when that's going to become a reality. Worse still, if you consider FSD an investment, since you can't transfer the license, and your insurance policy may not even cover it (consider my case where I only paid $5K for EAP, and the $2K I paid extra for FSD was a side purchase) if the car ever gets totaled, you are never going to see any benefit of that investment. At this point, I still think we are at least 5 years out before we see any practical kind of robotaxi service or true FSD. By then my car will be 9 years old. How much use am I going to get out of it then?
So if I had to answer your poll as-is today, coming at it fresh without already having FSD, I wouldn't even consider buying it. At least not until they change their licensing terms that if I buy an FSD license, it follows me. And even then, since FSD doesn't exist today in any form that is actually usable for self-driving purposes, I would consider it more of an investment. And while I would expect it to eventually offer a return on that investment, like I said, it's still many years off in my opinion. So I would be better off investing the cash in something today that is going to actually generate a return and buying FSD later, even if it means a higher price then.
Speaking of which, I also don't agree with the business model of the robotaxi network. I think the value being attributed to vehicles that participate in the robotaxi network is based on rideshare rides costing what they currently cost today (with human drivers). But if and when we have robotaxis on the roads, the rideshare market will be flooded with all this capacity and the price per ride will plummet. Expect the revenue per mile earned by robotaxi rideshare to be a fraction of what it is for Uber/Lyft. So I don't think that the economic returns of FSD are what everyone is attributing to it.
As for a subscription model, given that the only practical feature that would be enabled today (IMO) is the auto-lane change, I would probably pay around $30/month for it, given that I would probably subscribe to it for one month each year to use on a long trip I take annually. Any more than that, and I will manually change lanes. My wife's VW effectively has autosteer + TACC, and all she has to do to change lanes is manually do so and when she gets into the new lane it will pick up autosteering itself automatically. I think she might even get auto lane change as a future update. So while using the turn signal to request a lane change and be confident that it is doing it safely is a nice feature, it certainly isn't worth any more than $30 per long trip to me.
I paid $5K for Enhanced Autopilot when I bought my car. That was slightly more than I really thought it was worth (especially since the equivalent feature more or less comes with the higher trim levels of other vehicles, other than perhaps the auto lane change), but I figured I would roll it into the purchase price. If I had to set what I consider a fair price for essentially autosteer, TACC and auto lane change, I would say $2500.
Then I took advantage of a fire sale on FSD when it was offered for $2K. While I was sure that FSD was not "right around the corner" as they advertised it to be even then (early 2019 timeframe), I was willing to part with $2K so that eventually I would be able to have the car drive mostly unattended on long trips...I'd even be happy if it only worked on highways. Plus, I felt I was doing my part to fund FSD development (remember at that time, Tesla was still taking heavy losses).
So I guess in that timeframe, the amount I was willing to pay for an eventual FSD (and in my mind, it was still at least 5 years away), was $4500 (the $2500 I had already paid above and beyond what I thought was a fair price for EAP and the $2000 extra I paid for FSD). I'll even say $5000.
But since that time, things have changed. Now, of course, they got rid of EAP (huge mistake) and the only way you can get access to auto lane change (I think) is to buy the whole FSD package, even though FSD doesn't exist yet, and having seen how slow progress has been on FSD, I'm even less confident it's just around the corner. Sure, FSD capability and the ability to add your car to the Tesla robotaxi network is potentially very valuable. $12K may even be a bargain. But nobody knows when that's going to become a reality. Worse still, if you consider FSD an investment, since you can't transfer the license, and your insurance policy may not even cover it (consider my case where I only paid $5K for EAP, and the $2K I paid extra for FSD was a side purchase) if the car ever gets totaled, you are never going to see any benefit of that investment. At this point, I still think we are at least 5 years out before we see any practical kind of robotaxi service or true FSD. By then my car will be 9 years old. How much use am I going to get out of it then?
So if I had to answer your poll as-is today, coming at it fresh without already having FSD, I wouldn't even consider buying it. At least not until they change their licensing terms that if I buy an FSD license, it follows me. And even then, since FSD doesn't exist today in any form that is actually usable for self-driving purposes, I would consider it more of an investment. And while I would expect it to eventually offer a return on that investment, like I said, it's still many years off in my opinion. So I would be better off investing the cash in something today that is going to actually generate a return and buying FSD later, even if it means a higher price then.
Speaking of which, I also don't agree with the business model of the robotaxi network. I think the value being attributed to vehicles that participate in the robotaxi network is based on rideshare rides costing what they currently cost today (with human drivers). But if and when we have robotaxis on the roads, the rideshare market will be flooded with all this capacity and the price per ride will plummet. Expect the revenue per mile earned by robotaxi rideshare to be a fraction of what it is for Uber/Lyft. So I don't think that the economic returns of FSD are what everyone is attributing to it.
As for a subscription model, given that the only practical feature that would be enabled today (IMO) is the auto-lane change, I would probably pay around $30/month for it, given that I would probably subscribe to it for one month each year to use on a long trip I take annually. Any more than that, and I will manually change lanes. My wife's VW effectively has autosteer + TACC, and all she has to do to change lanes is manually do so and when she gets into the new lane it will pick up autosteering itself automatically. I think she might even get auto lane change as a future update. So while using the turn signal to request a lane change and be confident that it is doing it safely is a nice feature, it certainly isn't worth any more than $30 per long trip to me.
Personally, I paid $7,000 (EAP+FSD), which included the HW3 upgrade. I think I would've paid $12,000 if that was the only option. The FSD promise is one of the main reasons I got a Tesla in the first place! So it's definitely worth it for me!
Even in it's current form I use the FSD (and now the FSD Beta) all the time! I'd say 95% of my driving is on FSD. Even though it's far from perfect, I find it very helpful, especially on longer trips.
But that's me. My wife had an opportunity to upgrade her early Model 3 to FSD for just $3,000 and she passed on that offer! Standard Autopilot (which was a $2,000 upgrade in her case) apparently is more than enough for her. I can't convince her otherwise! But we did try the FSD subscription (with FSD Beta) on her car for an out-of-state trip last year. I think that's a good compromise!
Even in it's current form I use the FSD (and now the FSD Beta) all the time! I'd say 95% of my driving is on FSD. Even though it's far from perfect, I find it very helpful, especially on longer trips.
But that's me. My wife had an opportunity to upgrade her early Model 3 to FSD for just $3,000 and she passed on that offer! Standard Autopilot (which was a $2,000 upgrade in her case) apparently is more than enough for her. I can't convince her otherwise! But we did try the FSD subscription (with FSD Beta) on her car for an out-of-state trip last year. I think that's a good compromise!
My vote was how much I'd pay for FSD Beta. That amount is negative as testing FSD Beta is work, and I don't work for free.
My belief is Basic AP + Auto Lane change (driver initiated) should be included with the vehicle, and FSD should be sold as a subscription. The cost for FSD per month should reflect its actual capabilities.
FSD should have never been sold.
My belief is Basic AP + Auto Lane change (driver initiated) should be included with the vehicle, and FSD should be sold as a subscription. The cost for FSD per month should reflect its actual capabilities.
FSD should have never been sold.
After testing the FSD Beta for almost a year and personally observing the Autopilot progress for almost five years, I like where this is heading!
I think the FSD will be worth much more than $12,000 in a year or two. And I suspect the price will continue going up...
I think the FSD will be worth much more than $12,000 in a year or two. And I suspect the price will continue going up...
The poll was clear to me. In fact, I assumed it meant including 100% of everything avail today if you pay Tesla the $12k (regardless of what its called, what you call it, what the press calls it, what Elon refers to it as in tweets) today.
And all of YOU know what it meant as well. Some of you REALLY need to get off of Elon's j strap for at least one thread.
And all of YOU know what it meant as well. Some of you REALLY need to get off of Elon's j strap for at least one thread.
RTPEV
Active Member
I'm glad it was clear to you. But to me anyway, the way it is worded could imply what would I pay for if and when it ever exists, or, as you interpreted it, what would I be willing to pay for it in its current state. I have two entirely different answers to those two questions.The poll was clear to me. In fact, I assumed it meant including 100% of everything avail today if you pay Tesla the $12k (regardless of what its called, what you call it, what the press calls it, what Elon refers to it as in tweets) today.
And all of YOU know what it meant as well. Some of you REALLY need to get off of Elon's j strap for at least one thread.
Well FSD would have to be far better than AP/TACC was on my Y (without radar) to even remotely consider it. Let's just say I had so many phantom braking events I couldn't stand to use anything involving TACC.
On my 3 (no radar) and S (with radar) basic TACC/AP are pretty usable. I don't care about any features in the city as I don't trust the system at all. On the highway I can be a bit more relaxed so navigate and auto lane change would be useful. IF it worked pretty well, I'd spend 2-3k if they brought EAP back.
On my 3 (no radar) and S (with radar) basic TACC/AP are pretty usable. I don't care about any features in the city as I don't trust the system at all. On the highway I can be a bit more relaxed so navigate and auto lane change would be useful. IF it worked pretty well, I'd spend 2-3k if they brought EAP back.
Missile Toad
MSLR Wht/Blk/19 | OD 6/10/21 | RN11512
I'll pay $100 for FSD amnesia. This is how it would look. On every one of my devices, a filter is added so that when I'm using a browser, a social network app, or texting with friends, all headlines and content that mentions FSD is covered by black censor bars. If "Full Self ..." or "FSD" or any variant pops up in texts, the phrase will be replaced with 'XXX', and every mention of 'Tesla', 'EV' or 'car' is replaced with the word 'banana'.
I'm thinking that Elon could market this like he marketed "Not a flamethrower"
So a text from a friend would look like:
I'm thinking that Elon could market this like he marketed "Not a flamethrower"
So a text from a friend would look like:
I used XXX while driving my banana, and almost wrecked.
I said $1k. For me though it does depend on which Tesla I'm buying. If I was getting a model 3 I'd not be willing to pay $1k. On a model S $1k is kind of like buying a candy bar when checking out at the grocery store. It would be less than 1% of the price of the car so is a minor addition.
Although I have never experienced Tesla vehicles, I opted to include the $12,000 FSD when I ordered last month. I have a history of keeping vehicles for a long time, and keeping them low miles (current is a Lexus ES 350 I've owned for 9 years with only 67,000 mi). In my opinion, when FSD is truly FSD and authorized by the NHSTA, Tesla will eventually allow subscription only. So if I own the car for greater than 5 years, I will eventually end up saving money. If I'm wrong, that's fine. I do agree that FSD should be assigned to me, not the car.
JohnB007
Member
IMO, the current full price is fine.
It is clear that the current FSD is a beta, and some elements of it are super useful even in its current form. And knowing that it will gradually improve keeps me positive and interested. Even if the current hardware doesn't reach the full L3/L4/L5 (or whatever), I'm ok with it. Yes, there are other cars in this price range with better ride and more lux interior but they are no longer that high on my priority list.
I hope Tesla keeps pushing forward hard so that other auto manufacturers will also advance faster.
It's not for everyone at the current price, I agree.
It is clear that the current FSD is a beta, and some elements of it are super useful even in its current form. And knowing that it will gradually improve keeps me positive and interested. Even if the current hardware doesn't reach the full L3/L4/L5 (or whatever), I'm ok with it. Yes, there are other cars in this price range with better ride and more lux interior but they are no longer that high on my priority list.
I hope Tesla keeps pushing forward hard so that other auto manufacturers will also advance faster.
It's not for everyone at the current price, I agree.
RTPEV
Active Member
Good point. I used to gladly buy my satellite TV receivers, even when they started to get expensive when HD / DVR capability was added. But eventually forced you to go with the "rental" model (which I went along with because the early HD DVR receivers were pretty unreliable, and the technology improved so fast that it was hard to stay with the same model long enough to make the outright purchase work out). So yes, I agree with your strategy of an outright purchase in order to avoid getting stuck with a monthly subscription. I hope it works out for you (and me)...it's just that I don't see the finish line, and even keeping my car for 10 years, I'm a bit concerned that if I do ever see FSD, it's going to be at the very tail end of that.
But I guess that's okay, because then I'll just sell my TSLA stock, get a new car without FSD and keep the old one around in the Tesla Network and use it for trips when I want to sleep while en route!
Here is the biggest problem I see with an outright purchase of FSD (other than it is closer to snake oil than something I could really use), is that the hardware installed in the car may not support what it actually needs to be true FSD or where it gets to in a year or two, or maybe more.
No guarantees that you will be able to upgrade the current hardware to what you need in the future or what it will cost. If you look at the spec of current cameras they seem pretty low. Their low light performance clearly leaves something to be desired if going by the images you see in sentry mode. That is likely why they want you to have the high beams on whenever AP is engaged.
No guarantees that you will be able to upgrade the current hardware to what you need in the future or what it will cost. If you look at the spec of current cameras they seem pretty low. Their low light performance clearly leaves something to be desired if going by the images you see in sentry mode. That is likely why they want you to have the high beams on whenever AP is engaged.
Here is a perfect case in point regarding HW.
electrek.co
Tesla files to use a new radar and everyone is confused
Tesla has filed to use a new radar in its electric vehicles, and everyone is confused since Elon Musk has...
electrek.co
chadol
Member
I pay because i support Martian exploration. Otherwise it isn’t worth the money.
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