When did AP gain your trust?

[StellarRat]

I have eyes in my head but they don't work as well as the cameras on the Model 3.

Maybe it sees better, but the forward looking radar is probably more what it relies on in heavy weather. I wish there were some documents about how it uses all the sensors, so I could understand more about when I should and shouldn't trust the EAP.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Maybe it sees better, but the forward looking radar is probably more what it relies on in heavy weather. I wish there were some documents about how it uses all the sensors, so I could understand more about when I should and shouldn't trust the EAP.

I completely agree that Tesla needs to create a series of whitepapers or videos that describe how the system operates, and what to expect from it.

Here is what I know or at least what I think I know:

For TACC (adaptive cruise control) it relies on the radar to detect moving objects like the vehicle in front of you, and to get a solid estimate of the speed differential. They mostly likely throw out most any radar return that is from stopped objects. In a blog post regarding Firmware V8 Tesla said they were going to try to use the radar to "see" stopped objects, but they never did a follow on update to say whether they actually did or not. They were supposed to white list things like overhead signs to reduce the chance of false braking.

For AP (lane steering) it mostly relies on a neural network that is designed to detect cars, lines, etc. If the neural network hasn't been trained on an object then the car won't see it.

What I've been amazed by is how well the cameras+neuralnetwork in AP2+ are able to see the lines in low visibility situations or in situations where the road construction crews left old lines/markers. So it's like the road has 4 lines and you're supposed to figure out which lines are which while the low hanging sun light is reflecting off them. I couldn't believe that AP2 was doing a good job while my eyes were going "WTF is this crap?".

I've always appreciated the ability of the radar/TACC to work in adverse weather. That remains true if it's AP1 or AP2.

 

[StellarRat]

I completely agree that Tesla needs to create a series of whitepapers or videos that describe how the system operates, and what to expect from it.

In a blog post regarding Firmware V8 Tesla said they were going to try to use the radar to "see" stopped objects, but they never did a follow on update to say whether they actually did or not. They were supposed to white list things like overhead signs to reduce the chance of false braking.

I do have some empirical evidence that the car can detect stopped vehicles even if they were never moving aka parked cars. There is a spot by my house where the road goes from narrow two lane to very wide two lane (you could probably make four narrow lanes there aka an Irish road ) When it get to wide part of the road the car gets confused a bit and always goes to right side of the wide strip. So, I let it do it's thing one day (only going about 30 mph) and as usual it drifted over to the right at the wide part, but there is a parked car there. Sure enough it came to a complete stop before it was too close. So, I don't know if the camera saw it or the radar did, but it was definitely aware something was in the way.

 

[T34ME]

I take the JFK approach:
ASK NOT WHAT AUTOPILOT CAN DO FOR YOU, ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR AUTOPILOT

I have had my car for a month now. It was delivered with 48.12 and that's what it is still on. I consider it has three levels of "driver assist" - TACC, EAP, and Navigate on Autopilot.
I started using TACC as soon as the car calibrated
I started experimenting with EAP after about a week
I started using NoA this last week

For those who have never experienced Tesla "driver assist" (me), the initial reaction is unnerving, unfamiliar, unreal, and disconcerting. It took me about a day of frequent use to assess the capabilities and lack of capabilities on each of the three levels before I calmed down, stopped panicking, stopped over-correcting over-braking and felt more comfortable and relaxed. I just completed my first road trip (800 miles) on California's freeway system and I used EAP and NoA 90% of the time and TACC 10% of the time. I'm never going back, I am addicted to "driver assist" because 90+% of the time it drives better than I do. So yes, I do feel comfortable with "driver assist" but I am always very attentive, keep my hands on the wheel and ready to take control for those 10% of the times when I think I might be able to make better choices.

An example is last Monday night when we were returning home on Los Angeles freeway system in relatively heavy traffic in an area that was new to us (we do not live in L.A.) . I was using NoA. The car was asking me permission to change lanes (sometimes the freeways split to the right and sometimes to left). My wife and I started debating the car was taking us the wrong way! I said we were going to trust that the car was choosing the right lanes to get us the proper off ramps. So I turned on the signal to change lanes after checking if it was safe to do so and the car never faltered! It gave us the proper directions every time. We were amazed! We would have gotten ourselves completely lost in La-La land, pitch black, in neighborhoods where we might not be welcome.

My wife has been using TACC for three weeks now and is making good choices when to engage and not. She got her first experience with EAP this last weekend on our road trip. I used EAP 100% of the time in Los Angeles and over the Grapevine. We recharged at Tejon Ranch and she took over on our way north on 99 in relatively light traffic on that freeway and I had her engage EAP. She freaked out at first. I coached and encouraged her. She tried auto-lane change with no cars within a quarter mile. We tried lane keep on gentle sweeping curves. We traveled in the far right lane and I demonstrated that the car will drift to the right slightly and then correct when on ramps merge from the right. She started to relax. That's when EAP freaked out! She was so relaxed that she wasn't keeping enough torque on the wheel. After a half dozen times, EAP kicked her off the system until she pulled over and restarted the car. She started laughing at herself. After two hours of her driving on EAP we arrived in Fresno and she was really digging EAP. Her assessment, "Autopilot is FANTASTIC, I can't live without it. Can I drive all the way home with it on?" I told her she could drive back to Tejon but I would take over there. She still needs more wheel time with EAP before I trust her and she is still trying to find the proper touch on the wheel without nagging. I was able to drive two hours straight on EAP with no nags. I think I have found the sweet spot.

We had two false positives on braking on that 800 mile trip. Once we passed under two dark over-crossing that were spaced close together. The car didn't panic stop but it gently braked to let me know it was confused and I took over. The other time we were in the right lane going 65 and a construction zone came up on the right adjacent to our lane. The car suddenly braked to 40 mph. Why, our lane was completely clear? Then I saw a temporary sign, "Construction zone, 40 mph max." How did the car know that?

I think my wife is right. EAP is sometimes more aggressive and sometimes more timid than she is. It just takes a while to get used to the nuances and character of EAP. EAP makes me a better driver. Rather than having tunnel vision when driving manually, EAP allows me to look more frequently in my mirrors, be more aware of what is happening around me, and be more engaged with my car. I am MORE attentive on "driver assist" than less. I am always ready to take control, especially when we are in situations where I have learned "driver assist" is still under development. Is "driver assist" 100% reliable? No. We think it is about 90% reliable and has some limitations but will only get better. We are never going back. We are 100% committed to "driver assist", all three levels. It is the FUTURE!

 

[ℬête Noire]

So, I let it do it's thing one day (only going about 30 mph)

That's the key there. The technical difficulties with radar, that everyone faces, appear up around 50mph and up.

 

[ℬête Noire]

For those who have never experienced Tesla "driver assist" (me), the initial reaction is unnerving, unfamiliar, unreal, and disconcerting. It took me about a day of frequent use to assess the capabilities and lack of capabilities on each of the three levels before I calmed down, stopped panicking, stopped over-correcting over-braking and felt more comfortable and relaxed.

During the test drive I constantly kept pulling it out of EAP by pushing too hard on the wheel. LOL

It took me a couple days to largely defuse. I big thing was driving where there wasn't a lot of traffic. The test drive, because Tesla's showroom location, was on multilane fairly heavy traffic. My lizard brain kept thinking "I don't want to be in this part of the lane" and "oh, gentle curve, I don't want to be in this position, move over".

It took a while to get used to some gentle corners at 70mph, 2 lane highway. It's quite possible that EAP has improved on handling these, too, since I've gone through a number of upgrades now. And there are still a few locations nearby with much tighter corners on 2 lanes where I'm on the inside of the corner that I still won't let EAP run the inside of the corner. It just puts me too tight to the line, and I know from experience that other drivers with cheat that line oncoming, too.

I think they've improved the NN for false slowdowns by overheads. I've seen it before, and one of them was I think as you described. Driving under a dual bridge overpass. I was going 80mph at the time (75mph limit) and it only dropped to maybe 70mph, but it surprised me. But that was months ago. I probably haven't seen one since early November, maybe? Several thousand miles now. On my 3600mi cross country over New Years I didn't get a single false positive triggered. A lot of that was fairly open highway but there were a good number of overpasses, especially through the Appalachians, and overhead signage (my wife's had it trigger on overhead signs, last fall, too). Funny thing is I had a WTF moment myself on one of the overpasses in the dark. The way the lighting and shadows were it had a weird visual effect that it looked like I was about to drive into a 40ft tall wall.

What I do get occasionally still is a bit more aggressive braking than is probably needed triggered by vehicles crossing after the vehicle has already made it across. EAP is reacting in a "closing the barn door after the horses have gone" way. I'm not sure it happens as much, to the same extent, but I'm not ready to say it's gone, yet.

 

[sperkin]

Still not trusting AP. I use it all the time, but it has to be babysat because it messes up quite often. Old lines, patches, new lanes, S curves, cars swinging 2+ lane changes, and cars merging on the freeway at the same speed as you usually I need to take over. AP auto lane change is messed up too. It will swerve even when no cars are around. My wife almost lost control of the car. She fish tailed in the RWD using Auto Lane Change last week.

AP is great in LA traffic when speed is always 0-15mph on the freeway though. I just sit in the left lane as this reduces cars changing lanes into me. They can only come from the right side which is safer than in the middle lane where cars are coming in from the left and the right. Stay out of the right most lane cause AP can't handle merging.

Since my last post, my trust for EAP went up with firmware 50. Lately its been doing a great job in LA traffic. Before, AP would take 2 to 3 seconds slower than me to react, but now it's really fast. It's kind of the same speed as me now. I'm surprised it reacts to slight movements of adjacent cars as they try to bully into my lane. I even tested with 1 lane gap and it's working perfectly as cars cutting in and out in front of me.

If you read my previous posts from last summer, I was in an AP accident. Van pulled out in front of me and scratched my bumper while we were all doing 7mph in freeway traffic. Another time, AP almost side swipe a car as it tried to change lane into me half way. Now I'm very confident AP will react faster and this situation will not happen again. Many situations like this occurs everyday and AP on firmware 50 always reacted fast enough that I'm trusting it more and more. However, I still won't trust it at highway speeds. If it messes up it'll be more than just rubbing bumpers.

There are still issues but it's getting better. I have some confident that FSD is possible now. Can't wait to see what's coming in 2019.