Wind News

[dpeilow]

More anti-wind FUD from the right-wing press: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...er-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html

Not surprisingly the comments on this one were closed, so I used their feedback form:

In your story of 31st Jan, "In China, the true cost of Britain's clean, green wind power experiment: Pollution on a disastrous scale" you implied that rare earth metals - specifically Neodymium - are necessary for the manufacture of the wind turbines which will allow a significant shift away from the burning of fossil fuels for Britain's energy needs (e.g. caption "the Baotou Xijun Rare Earth refinery in Baotou, where neodymium, essential in new wind turbine magnets, is processed").

In fact many of the most powerful turbine designs do not use rare earth permanent magnets at all - those from Siemens and Enercon, for example, use asynchronous induction generators. These are not affected by Chinese quotas and are not responsible for any of the pollution that you highlight.

Permanent magnets are not a pre-requisite for high power wind turbines and those manufacturers that do use them will undoubtedly redesign their machines as materials scarcity and market forces dictate.

Meanwhile your story comes across as pure scaremongering against what must be seen as an important technology in our battle to achieve energy independence. I can't see why achieving that is not a desirable goal (I have no connection to the wind industry at all).

To give some background, the Mail is claiming that wind turbines *require* neodymium for their generators just as some have claimed that EVs require neodymium for their motors. Both being subject to the same Chinese quotas and the same scare stories about rampant, unregulated polution in its extraction in China. They claim that a 3MW model (a common size) requires 2 tonnes of the stuff.

However it occured to me that induction generators are likely to be just as relevant to this application as induction motors are in the best EVs. Lo and behold a quick search turns up that they are used. In fact the same kind of squirrel cage arrangement as the Roadster is used:

http://www.windturbines.net/wiki/Asynchronous_Generators


So I did a search of the data sheets of the usual suspects in wind turbine manufacturing and found the following:

• Siemens - No permanent magnets (asynchronous induction generator)
• Enercon - No permanent magnets ("Annular generator")
• GE - permanent magnets
• Vestas - permanent magnets
• Alstom - permanent magnets

The first two make the biggest turbines on the market, so neodymium clearly isn't needed to scale up.

 

[vfx]

The SC show talked about the availably of rare earth in a CA mine. They said they have bored and found no bottom to the supply. The mine was closed because of Chinese cost undercutting and Eco waste. They are now reopening it with new waste mitigation as prices have gone up.

 

[doug]

Massive Snowmelt Pits Wind Turbines Against Water Power - Lee van der Voo - Technology - The Atlantic

 

[TEG]

One would think that some electric intensive business such as electroplating or hydrogen production would swarm in to the place with the inexpensive power.
Having too much power seems like a bizarre problem in this day and age.

They need more EVs there!

 

[SByer]

I think it just speaks to the sadness that is the 'national' (*) electric grid in the U.S. There's more than enough wind power happening at any one time to power the grid, if we could just get the power from there to where it's needed. The danger is that this country doesn't decide to do it as a country and corporations step in with private grids just to connect their own datacenters and wind / solar farms - sorta like what's happened with bus lines in Silicon Valley (**).

(*) funny thing, I wanted airquote emoticons there - an idea that, apparently, has been kicking around a while but nobody has implemented FWICT.

(**) See this PDF for an interesting take on that. The VTA will never adapt enough, my guess because it's a political impossibility, and they would never be as efficient as an employer provided service that knows the times and spots to hit.

 

[vfx]

funny
In The Know: Coal Lobby Warns Wind Farms May Blow Earth Off Orbit | The Onion - America's Finest News Source | Onion News Network

 

[mt2]

funny
In The Know: Coal Lobby Warns Wind Farms May Blow Earth Off Orbit | The Onion - America's Finest News Source | Onion News Network

You beat me to it. I was going to introduce it as more FUD.

 

[vfx]

You beat me to it. I was going to introduce it as more FUD.

I wanted to as well. Its on the Onion so not going to fool anyone.

 

[dpeilow]

GE and UGE to introduce hybrid wind, solar EV charger : Clean Energy Authority

The New Sanya Skypump is a Wind and Solar-Powered Electric Vehicle Charger! | Inhabitat - Green Design Will Save the World

 

[doug]

 

[dpeilow]

Volkswagen to invest $1.4 billion in offshore wind farms, other sources of renewable energy

Except Eric Loveday got his € > $ conversion the wrong way round.

 

[zack]

Humorous reversal of exchange rates. If we sit still for just a bit, it might come true. 8^D

 

[doug]

Wind farm paid £1.2 million to produce no electricity - Telegraph

 

[zack]

That's a tragedy in two ways. 1] Not being able to take advantage of high winds because there's no place to store the energy. 2] Creating a negative perception of the wind farms because of bad decisions regarding shut-down auctions.

We seriously need a way to store electric energy, so we could constantly be using every wind turbine and every solar panel array. One example that comes to mind is pumping water back into reservoirs where it can later be used to generate hydroelectric power. A trade could be done between providers. Another thing that could be done is operating giant machines that take carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere. Doesn't save the energy for later use, but preserves the planet for later use. Heating giant phase-change salt baths that could be circulated through communities providing heat, like giant steam plants have been used before. There's got to be ways to put these giant energy-generating machines to work during every high-efficiency moment.

 

[VolkerP]

There is a market for "ancillary services" to balance the electric grid, but very little of it goes into energy storage. Otherwise, it would be employed on a large scale. Pumping reservoirs are in operation but they have very limited capacity (e.g. Dinorwig can balance 1.8GW but only for 6 hours).
A future solution is to use excessive electricity for hydrolysis and feed the hydrogen to the natural gas network. Hydrogen is a natural component of natural gas. The NG network and all appliances can deal with up to 20% hydrogen without modifications. Excessive H2 can be used in a catalytic reaction to turn captured CO2 into methane and water. Nearly arbitrary amounts of methane can be fed and stored in the natural gas network. The CO2 can be captured from industrial processes like brewing, burning coal in IGCC units, or (with an extra energy penalty) can be sucked up from air as suggested by zack.

This process was investigated by the research center for solar energy and hydrogen and clean energy start up SolarFuel. Currently, a second demonstration unit with 250kW electrical input is under construction. Greenpeace Energy (clean energy utility) provides a natural gas contract where your NG usage is displaced by a similar amount of H2 from excessive wind power, and methane in the long run.

If employed on a large scale, renewable energy sources can supply 100% of all electricity, with the excessive electricity going to space heating, synthetic jet fuel, and other uses of synthetic carbon hydrogen. BTW, electrifying all passenger cars will still be the cheapest and most efficient way to use renewable energy sources - not hydrogen and fuel cells :smile:

 

[doug]

Some threads on grid storage:

energy storage via underground compressed air
Battery Recycling Second Life Storage
flywheels to balance the grid

Wiki article: Grid energy storage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dpeilow]

As I asked on twitter - our biggest wind farm is now over 300MW and total UK capacity will be in the Gigawatts. How efficient and expensive are this many electrolysers, vs storing the energy in batteries?

The other alternative is that we get large interconnectors set up and export excess energy to where it is needed.

 

[vfx]

Makes me want o build a wind farm.

10 times payment!

 

[stenkb]

would the electric motor from a roadster be a good fit for a generator for wind power? Low resistance and high kw output... Is there a way to calculate this?

 

[Doug_G]

would the electric motor from a roadster be a good fit for a generator for wind power? Low resistance and high kw output... Is there a way to calculate this?

You could use the same technology, but you'd have to make sure it was sized properly for the job at hand.