150kW Supercharging for Model 3

[darth_vad3r]

However seeing 150 is pretty rare as the power indication on that screen is what’s going into the battery not what the car is receiving. In the above example, it’s likely the car was using ~1kW for battery and/or cabin cooling and the car is actually receiving 150kW or more.

So, is the supercharger charge screen logic to display the power understood to be different than the AC charge screen?

When I’m on L1 or L2 I can crank the heat or AC and it will adjust the km/hr charge rate down accordingly, even to 0, but the kW displayed stays constant at e.g. 1kW or 6kW, so the kW on the AC charge screen is not what’s going to the battery.

 

[Zoomit]

So, is the supercharger charge screen logic to display the power understood to be different than the AC charge screen?

When I’m on L1 or L2 I can crank the heat or AC and it will adjust the km/hr charge rate down accordingly, even to 0, but the kW displayed stays constant at e.g. 1kW or 6kW, so the kW on the AC charge screen is not what’s going to the battery.

Yes, the screen logic appears to be different, or at least the source data is different. It looks like the AC charging screen shows the on-board charger output power whereas the DC charging screen shows the battery pack input power. The former would include DC power, after conversion, that's diverted to other DC power needs, namely the HVAC.

During my last Supercharging session I tested this. I had HVAC off initially. When I turned it on, there was a brief, small drop in charge power then it reverted back to the previous power level. I expect this transient was due to the higher load the car was putting on the stall. The car then apparently requested more amperage, which the stall provided, but that additional power was not represented on the Supercharging screen.

Here's an example video from Bjorn with a DCFC unit where he compares stall data with the car's display. Watch it for a few minutes to see both the HVAC off and HVAC on examples.

 

[darth_vad3r]

Yes, the screen logic appears to be different, or at least the source data is different. It looks like the AC charging screen shows the on-board charger output power whereas the DC charging screen shows the battery pack input power. The former would include DC power, after conversion, that's diverted to other DC power needs, namely the HVAC.

During my last Supercharging session I tested this. I had HVAC off initially. When I turned it on, there was a brief, small drop in charge power then it reverted back to the previous power level. I expect this transient was due to the higher load the car was putting on the stall. The car then apparently requested more amperage, which the stall provided, but that additional power was not represented on the Supercharging screen.

Here's an example video from Bjorn with a DCFC unit where he compares stall data with the car's display. Watch it for a few minutes to see both the HVAC off and HVAC on examples.

Thanks, I actually remembered seeing that video actually and couldn't remember what the result was and if it agreed with my premise or opposed it ... the 3rd party DCFC showed a higher power than the kW displayed in the car, indicating the car was excluding the HVAC power ... isn't that agreeing with what I'm saying though for L1/L2 AC charging screen excluding the HVAC power draw by not subtracting it?

He cranks the heat but the 120kW doesn't drop, so it doesn't include HVAC. Isn't that the opposite of what you just said? Oh wait, wait. I misunderstood the original framing of the issue I think. I was thinking you were saying you won't see 150kW because the car caps at 150kW but needs to use some power for HVAC, etc... We're saying the same thing, It just didn't click in for me initially that the 150kW drop to 149kW was due stall-limited 150kW output limit and so it would show a drop in the kW because the car was at the stall limit, it diverted 1kW of stall power to HVAC, leaving the battery with 149kW. In an SR+ I'd see 100kW pegged, and turning HVAC on or off would not change my kW display on the Supercharger screen, similar to how it does not change the kW display on the AC charge screen and to how Bjorn's car was pegged at 120kW (well within capacity of the 'hypercharger' or whatever he was using).

OK, so I think my first question was phrased poorly. Or maybe it made sense, by accident, but it actually was based on misreading the statement

Thanks for the link to that video, I was actually thinking of that exact moment you linked to

So for the Supercharging screen, the kW is what's being fed to the onboard battery charging system by the offboard charger.
For AC charging screen, the kW seems to be the supply from the onboard charger after conversion from AC?

If accessories like HVAC need to run, they steal from shore power first, but that doesn't get reflected in the kW display on the AC charge screen. It also normally wouldn't get reflected on the Supercharging charge screen unless you were stall-limited, since the car would just request more power from the offboard charger to maintain its desired battery charging power.

So I guess typically going forwards on V3, kW displayed would not reflect accessory/HVAC since nobody will be stall-limited (or if they are it will only be for a minute or so at that max power).

 

[Zoomit]

So for the Supercharging screen, the kW is what's being fed to the onboard battery charging system by the offboard charger.
For AC charging screen, the kW seems to be the supply from the onboard charger after conversion from AC?

If accessories like HVAC need to run, they steal from shore power first, but that doesn't get reflected in the kW display on the AC charge screen. It also normally wouldn't get reflected on the Supercharging charge screen unless you were stall-limited, since the car would just request more power from the offboard charger to maintain its desired battery charging power.

So I guess typically going forwards on V3, kW displayed would not reflect accessory/HVAC since nobody will be stall-limited (or if they are it will only be for a minute or so at that max power).

I think you got it. This is confusing.

One correction and another clarification. The AC charging screen definitely shows input power, not post AC-DC conversion power like I had said previously. I just checked on my car and it matches what is coming from the wall and includes none of the conversion losses.

The clarification is about V3 power limits. I am confident that there’s power margin available above 250kW from a V3 stall. The V3 sessions we’ve seen are often pegged at 250kW when there is a high likelihood of accessory/HVAC usage of at least a few kWs.

Someone could test this by cycling HVAC when charging at 250kW and noting the effects. I expect there may be a transient drop but it will recover and continue to charge the battery at 250kW. This means the car is receiving slightly more than 250kW, possibly as much as 258-260kW. That additional amount would be going to accessories and HVAC.

 

[Big Earl]

Honestly, it doesn’t really matter if it’s 247, 250 or 253. It’s as near as makes no difference.

 

[Zoomit]

Honestly, it doesn’t really matter if it’s 247, 250 or 253. It’s as near as makes no difference.

Reverse engineering how it works to satisfy an intellectual curiosity and what is significant for the average person a trip are two entirely different things. A far majority of Model 3 drivers wouldn't ever notice the difference in charging speeds between charging at 200 vs 250 kW.

With a theoretical V3 charger limited to 200kW, it only increases the Model 3 LR 0-40% charge time by 90 seconds verses a stall capable of 250kW. The different becomes less than a minute when starting from a more typical lower battery level like 20%. The 0-40% charging time difference between 247 and 250 kW is 5 seconds...a 247kW limit would require one extra breath before unplugging.

 

[jtc_LA]

Hi Zoomit - would it be possible for you to post a graph (for long range Model 3) that shows the time & SOC (not the kW) so we can see the time difference/savings? Thank you.

 

[Zoomit]

Hi Zoomit - would it be possible for you to post a graph (for long range Model 3) that shows the time & SOC (not the kW) so we can see the time difference/savings? Thank you.

I can, but those graphs suck because you have to assume some arbitrary starting SOC. Starting at 0% SOC will show the cumulative time to get to 100%, but no one ever really starts at zero, or at least they should never plan on it.

This graph might help address your interest better:

From: V3 Supercharging Profiles for Model 3