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150kW SuperCharging in Europe
- Thread starter widodh
- Start date
I think you mean 2019.12.1.2 but yes, it seems that all European superchargers are still limited to 120kW.
However, with this update some people with <100kWh batteries are seeing decent improvements due to ORBW alone, e.g. 116kW for a 90D
Also quite possibly the charging profile on 100D will be broadened by ORBW but have yet to test this for myself.
However, with this update some people with <100kWh batteries are seeing decent improvements due to ORBW alone, e.g. 116kW for a 90D
Also quite possibly the charging profile on 100D will be broadened by ORBW but have yet to test this for myself.
ORBW = On-Route Battery Warming, should be in your release notes, whereby the TMS [somewhat like Range-Mode] stops cooling the pack ~20min before arriving at a programmed SuC-stop, allowing it to heat to >40°C, thus enabling faster charging.
For 150kW I think we poor Euro-cousins must check back in like 3 months time -- a watched kettle never boils, you know?
Just in time for our family trip to CH then. Would be nice! Although I fear that with my 75D, I won't be getting a lot more than the 92-93kW maximum that I've had so far (42.000 km). Which I haven't seen since a few months actually (went from 2018.50.8 to 2019.12.1.1).
Whatever will be will be...
ORBW, I see
That's in 2019.12.2 indeed, but no mention of the higher SuperCharging speeds.Might it be possible that the European connector can't handle the higher Amps/Current?
They will need to push the current to something like 400A as you might be charging around 360V when the pack is on a low SoC.
Not a problem for M3 with CCS2, obviously, but for MS/X it remains to be seen. From my own experience the plastic insulation around the individual receptacles in the SuC plug is traditionally the weakest link for those, as it tends to expand and crack apart with fairly moderate heat, after maybe a few cycles @ ~60°C with dusty contacts, though I think they had already begun replacing these as they frequently break with a new shinier and harder looking formulation which I hope will see us safely up to 150kW, once they have done the rest over the next couple of months.
If you compare the inside of a Mennekes plug on a stall prepped for M3 with that of an old MS one you will see the material difference.
I should imagine there has to be some plan in the works as the new MS/X are designed for 200kW and will presumably be using the same plug as always, at least I have heard nothing about them going to CCS.
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This image was posted in a Dutch (NL) topic and that made me wonder.
The SuperCharger cabinet is rated at 400V 3-phase 192A, that's a maximum of 133kW input.
Let's say the chargers are 95% efficient, that would be 125kW of DC output.
How could Tesla upgrade this to 145 ~ 150kW without replacing any hardware?
As far as the current rating goes, I think the 135kW refers to the DC output side, so rectifier efficiency etc. would not need to be accounted for: 330A * 410V = 135.3kW, so it looks like it was always able to supply that amount at the plug.
From there to 150kW is a step up of only 10.8%, so maybe they just test it programmed at a higher output and, on passing, re-rate the existing HW? Or maybe, if the higher amperage is not considered "continuous", i.e. it holds for less than 30min in all cases, then the regulations permit using it like that under the existing rating?
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Two posts in the Dutch section:
- Superchargers in Nederland (NL)
- Superchargers in Nederland (NL)
The maximum shown is 351A which is already more then the 330A.
- Superchargers in Nederland (NL)
- Superchargers in Nederland (NL)
The maximum shown is 351A which is already more then the 330A.
From the Jason Hughes teardown:
100D pack = 102.4kWh in 8256 cells = 516 cells * 16 modules = 12.403Wh/cell @ nominal 3.6v = 3445mAh per cell
Configuration = 96S86P = cell charge range of 3.0V .. 4.2V = pack charge range of 288V .. 403.2V
Pack nominal @50% SoC = 96S cells @3.6V = 345.6V
Pack @60% SoC = 96S cells @3.72 = 357.12V
Pack @80% SoC = 96S cells @3.96V = 380.16V
At 0% SoC the 100D pack has 288V, so to charge it at 150kW would initially draw 521A, which in let's say 20min reaches 60% SoC with 357V, drawing 420A, from which point it tapers in another 10min to 100kW at 80% SoC with 380V drawing 263A (where the times given are my guesstimates).
Something like this would allow the nominally 135kW v2 SuC to supply on average somewhat less than 150kW for about 30min, thus remaining within rating for regulatory purposes, while filling up most users at the fastest rate possible.
It would be great if the profile with ORBW & 150kW enabled were like this, i.e. more tall, broad and flat than traditionally, but it may not slope quite that aggressively on the rear end unless the cooling system is up to it and no undue life-expectancy hit is incurred. The 100D had improved module cooling so I think it is not out of the question. Up to now mine has generally always traversed 74kW @ 73% when charging from 5%, meaning a much flatter tapering off, hence slower.
PS: Some M3 owners in Germany are reporting that they max out at 90kW on certain older SuCs (without stall-pair splitting), whereas others continue supplying up to 120kW.
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Mm, i'm not 100% sure but why should you have to match the pack voltage? Couldn't it just charge with 400V?
AFAIK Tesla's Li-Ion is charged with CC/CV, meaning (in principle) constant current up to ~60%, then a constant voltage to level off at 100%, something like this:
Charging Lithium-Ion Batteries
Also this source is informative:
"Most rechargeable batteries charge similarly, and all DC quick chargers, whether they be Tesla Superchargers or CHAdeMO or CCS quick chargers. Basically when the battery is at a low state of charge, the battery management system (BMS) calls for a given constant current (CC) to be fed into the battery. For example, it may call for 300A of current, which the Supercharger would supply. The voltage of the circuit will be dependent on the state of charge of the battery. This may be 350V when the charge commences, and be closer to 400V when the battery is full. But during this phase of charging, the Supercharger will deliver its constant 300A of current which charges the battery.
Note that a BMS may request a certain amount of current, but the actual charger might not be able to deliver that requested amount. That may be because the charger is simply not powerful enough, or there is some kind of environmental condition such as the unit is overheating and needs to throttle itself back. This is fine, the charger will simply give what it can and the car will charge slower as a result.
Once the battery pack voltage crosses a certain threshold, meaning it has achieved a set state of charge, the BMS will command the Supercharger to switch to Constant Voltage (CV) mode. Each type of vehicle will have a different threshold at which this happens. In Teslas, I believe it is about 50% state of charge. In Nissan LEAFs, it’s more around 80%.
In Constant Voltage mode, the charger outputs a set voltage which is slightly above the battery’s 100% full voltage. This causes an amount of current to flow into the battery that continues to fill the battery, and the battery voltage will continue to rise. As it gets closer to the CV voltage, less and less current flows, meaning less power is being delivered, i.e., the charging rate tapers off. This is why it is very fast to charge an EV from empty to 75–80%, but the last 10–20% takes a lot longer.
Note that Teslas start to taper off at a pretty low state of charge. So even though a Supercharger is capable of delivering 120kW to an individual vehicle, because the vehicle has switched over to CV mode, it will be drawing less than the max for a significant portion of the charging session."
https://www.quora.com/How-does-the-Tesla-Supercharger-work
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aagosh
Member
I am currently getting 115 kW at Schaffhausen SuperCharger in Switzerland. Looking forward to getting CCS upgraded on my ModelX and trying IONITY supercharger at 150kW.
Is your car rated for 200kW charging?
I was also thinking getting about the CCS adapter upgrade, though preliminary data suggests that for a 2018 100D the time-saving benefit of 150kW may be quite small, as it seems to spike and fall off quickly due to on-board cooling limitations:
Faster Tesla Supercharging - How does it actually perform?
However, the new dual-plug cables on the Supercharger are designed for liquid cooling (as a tech I met installing them showed me, the internal end has two empty holes in the fitting for pipes) and one can feel the rubber sheath on them is slightly loose compared to the old type.
AFAIK there is no liquid cooling hardware in the current cabinets so I took this to be in preparation for v3 SuC, which may still be years away from a widespread rollout.
I was also thinking getting about the CCS adapter upgrade, though preliminary data suggests that for a 2018 100D the time-saving benefit of 150kW may be quite small, as it seems to spike and fall off quickly due to on-board cooling limitations:
Faster Tesla Supercharging - How does it actually perform?
However, the new dual-plug cables on the Supercharger are designed for liquid cooling (as a tech I met installing them showed me, the internal end has two empty holes in the fitting for pipes) and one can feel the rubber sheath on them is slightly loose compared to the old type.
AFAIK there is no liquid cooling hardware in the current cabinets so I took this to be in preparation for v3 SuC, which may still be years away from a widespread rollout.
aagosh
Member
I dont know if 2018 could handle a sustained 150 kW as well. For me - getting CCS is more for having peace of mind rather than faster charging speed. CCS is getting widespread installation here in Europe and I want to be able to charge at both IONITY and Tesla SoC during my long distance trips. It greatly simplifies the trip planning.
Forget about 150kW charging, it is marketing non-sense. Here the details from the post that @OPRCE posted:
Faster Tesla Supercharging - How does it actually perform?
"The BTX6 battery is the old grandmaster among Tesla batteries. Except for being the clearly highest capacity battery, it could also take 120 kW longer than any other battery. However, in the plot below, we notice something when it is pushed to 145 kW - see those decreasing lines of charging dots from 145 to 120 kW? It really seems like the charging speed tapers off pretty quickly irrespective if you start at high or low SoC. The likely cause is that something in the battery or cabling gets too hot and that the cooling system is not able to keep it cool enough. Too bad on this fine piece of battery!"
Faster Tesla Supercharging - How does it actually perform?
"The BTX6 battery is the old grandmaster among Tesla batteries. Except for being the clearly highest capacity battery, it could also take 120 kW longer than any other battery. However, in the plot below, we notice something when it is pushed to 145 kW - see those decreasing lines of charging dots from 145 to 120 kW? It really seems like the charging speed tapers off pretty quickly irrespective if you start at high or low SoC. The likely cause is that something in the battery or cabling gets too hot and that the cooling system is not able to keep it cool enough. Too bad on this fine piece of battery!"
