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19" vs 21" wheels & tires
- Thread starter Gadget-X
- Start date
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
@Gadget-X
I started a group buy for the Model 3, for mono-block forged with this company -- I am talking to them about 19's for the Model S...they cost ~$2720 for four with lifetime warranty. I am also talking to these guys for same quality of product for the about the same price for the S. Both provide lifetime structural warranty, unlike many of the "Flow Forged" guys. I also like those SV104's above... I need to relook those too - never mind, outside my price range.
Additionally i have two reservations in with Evasive for 19's for my wife's and my Model S (P85+) I started on 21's on three of the Model S's (P85, P85+, 90D) I have owned and dumped all 21's for Tesla stock 19's waiting a quality low cost mono-block forged wheel. EMS needs 5 orders to be completed before they source. I believe they have 4 sets reserved (2 sets from me, and 1 set each from two other buyers).
I know two other guys have PMed me and have reservations in as well with EMS, all we need is one more order for them to push to production. Call Mike Chang at Evasive and confirm that they have five sets ordered... or I can do it if you want.
Bottom Line: Get the strongest wheel you can find in the size you want - in my mind, mono-block forged is the only way to go with a 6000 GVWR Sedan. you can find the Tesla Arachnids (21") for under $3000 with tires (Mich PSS's) and TPMS, so use that as you max budget for real forged wheels, cause this deal is hard to beat..
Counter Argument: CAST wheels are fine - but why would you pay more than $250 each of them, if you can get stockers on eBay in 19" for that?
I would never put flow forged, roller forged, or what ever marketing they can come up with for non forged wheels on a ~$100K sedan, but lots of people do (Hell I had to do it while I researched the market for a couple of vendors) but with the price delta being so close to a couple of vendors above, why would you buy flow, roller, Fugazy or fugazi (pronounced foo-gay-zee) "forged" CAST wheels, when you could buy the real deal - Mono-Block Forged to save a couple hundred dollars for essentially the same stuff Tesla makes and that you can find used on eBay for $250 per wheel?
I won't get into the weight vs range vs aero argument or some people on here will go into anaphylactic shock. Less mass, helps handling, better aero helps range, but no vendors test their wheels for aero, so you only have one factor you can control, weight.. less is better, and on a car that weighs so much, mono-block forged will offer the strongest and lightest wheel <$3K for a full set, yes you can buy carbon fiber wheels, but those cost $4K per wheel minimum to save a couple more pounds per corner.
Buy the car with 19's and see how you like them, I would get the aeros on the new RAVEN +, once you get your forged wheels, dumb them on eBay.
N + 3 on the Tire comments. I also moved from MXM4's to Michelin A/S 3 + and damn things are loud and have a stiffer sidewall that give a much more rough ride, I will move back to the MXM's when I smoke these off the car.
N + 2 on TST's - they don't do it for me either at those price points.
I started a group buy for the Model 3, for mono-block forged with this company -- I am talking to them about 19's for the Model S...they cost ~$2720 for four with lifetime warranty. I am also talking to these guys for same quality of product for the about the same price for the S. Both provide lifetime structural warranty, unlike many of the "Flow Forged" guys. I also like those SV104's above... I need to relook those too - never mind, outside my price range.
Additionally i have two reservations in with Evasive for 19's for my wife's and my Model S (P85+) I started on 21's on three of the Model S's (P85, P85+, 90D) I have owned and dumped all 21's for Tesla stock 19's waiting a quality low cost mono-block forged wheel. EMS needs 5 orders to be completed before they source. I believe they have 4 sets reserved (2 sets from me, and 1 set each from two other buyers).
I know two other guys have PMed me and have reservations in as well with EMS, all we need is one more order for them to push to production. Call Mike Chang at Evasive and confirm that they have five sets ordered... or I can do it if you want.
Bottom Line: Get the strongest wheel you can find in the size you want - in my mind, mono-block forged is the only way to go with a 6000 GVWR Sedan. you can find the Tesla Arachnids (21") for under $3000 with tires (Mich PSS's) and TPMS, so use that as you max budget for real forged wheels, cause this deal is hard to beat..
Counter Argument: CAST wheels are fine - but why would you pay more than $250 each of them, if you can get stockers on eBay in 19" for that?
I would never put flow forged, roller forged, or what ever marketing they can come up with for non forged wheels on a ~$100K sedan, but lots of people do (Hell I had to do it while I researched the market for a couple of vendors) but with the price delta being so close to a couple of vendors above, why would you buy flow, roller, Fugazy or fugazi (pronounced foo-gay-zee) "forged" CAST wheels, when you could buy the real deal - Mono-Block Forged to save a couple hundred dollars for essentially the same stuff Tesla makes and that you can find used on eBay for $250 per wheel?
I won't get into the weight vs range vs aero argument or some people on here will go into anaphylactic shock. Less mass, helps handling, better aero helps range, but no vendors test their wheels for aero, so you only have one factor you can control, weight.. less is better, and on a car that weighs so much, mono-block forged will offer the strongest and lightest wheel <$3K for a full set, yes you can buy carbon fiber wheels, but those cost $4K per wheel minimum to save a couple more pounds per corner.
Buy the car with 19's and see how you like them, I would get the aeros on the new RAVEN +, once you get your forged wheels, dumb them on eBay.
N + 3 on the Tire comments. I also moved from MXM4's to Michelin A/S 3 + and damn things are loud and have a stiffer sidewall that give a much more rough ride, I will move back to the MXM's when I smoke these off the car.
N + 2 on TST's - they don't do it for me either at those price points.
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beatle
Active Member
That's interesting. I was planning the opposite. My car came with MXM4s which are okay. I have no problems with the noise, and cornering grip is fine for the girls I go out with, but braking doesn't give me much confidence. ABS kicks in way too early IMO, and I've had traction control interfere with launches occasionally.
The A/S 3+'s do weigh a couple pounds more than the MXM4s. Are they close to being worn out or were they always loud? I've had some tires howl like crazy when they get close to the wear bars, though they were always very aggressive summer tires.[/user]
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
I got them in October, I believe there must be a quality issue with this set, they were next to impossible to balance even using the Road Force System, had my wheels checked, they were fine, so it has something to do with tire molds. I just had road force done again this week to eliminate the possibility that the tech didn't know what he was doing. I will be headed back to Costco to return them and get something else.
Here is what drives me nuts with the A/S 3+
1. After the car sits overnight in cold weather, they seem to get flat spots that, make a thumbing and vibration sound for the first couple miles until the tires warm up.
2. They break traction in cold weather pretty frequently (similar to the MXM's), which I wasn't expecting - maybe in the summer this will go away.
3. The ride is stiffer and more jarring and seems to get worse the colder it gets.
4. I may wait to get new wheels, just to eliminate that as an issue, but Titan/Evasive/Martian are taking forever to come out with their 19" mono block forged wheel for the Model S, and I refuse to pay more than $3K for set of four wheels. I dont need jewelry, I just want good specs.
5. They won't balance and still have 20 lbs of unbalanced weight (not sure what this means, but the Road Force printout shows this for 2 of the four, we moved those to the rear and still vibrates like crap when cold)
Maybe I got a bad set...need to eliminate that with a replacement of the tires, but if I am going to do that I am going back to MXM4's.
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For clarity I am pointing out the weights vs aero and range because there are too many folks here that push lighter rims as an efficiency thing.
No argument handling and braking can be improved with lighter rims.
If weight was THE ticket as many think we would see arachnids resulting in range gains and being worth more than they are besides Tesla would make them standard or at least available as a range upgrade.
The slipstreams and such are big and heavy not just to be cheap but because that material is being used to block unnecessary airflow into the wheel.
No argument handling and braking can be improved with lighter rims.
If weight was THE ticket as many think we would see arachnids resulting in range gains and being worth more than they are besides Tesla would make them standard or at least available as a range upgrade.
The slipstreams and such are big and heavy not just to be cheap but because that material is being used to block unnecessary airflow into the wheel.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
I am a gearhead I understand the physics, but I also understand the real world unlike the cripplingly academic that are commonplace here.
Acceleration wise you are talking a tenth or two in the quarter mile, that translates to basically nothing on the street where you are traction limited anyway and rarely that deep in the pedal.
Handling and braking wise again the benefits will be when pushing hard.
If buying wheels for aesthetics absolutely consider weight because you might as well get that upgrade at the same time, or if you push the car hard and want every last edge understand that is what rim weight savings does.
Spending thousands for lighter wheels on a daily driver/commuter is not going to get you any meaningful tangible benefits though. Just want folks to understand that. Been on too many car forums too long and seen a lot of folks mislead into buying things where the benefits were oversold to them.
Acceleration wise you are talking a tenth or two in the quarter mile, that translates to basically nothing on the street where you are traction limited anyway and rarely that deep in the pedal.
Handling and braking wise again the benefits will be when pushing hard.
If buying wheels for aesthetics absolutely consider weight because you might as well get that upgrade at the same time, or if you push the car hard and want every last edge understand that is what rim weight savings does.
Spending thousands for lighter wheels on a daily driver/commuter is not going to get you any meaningful tangible benefits though. Just want folks to understand that. Been on too many car forums too long and seen a lot of folks mislead into buying things where the benefits were oversold to them.
Ostrichsak
Well-Known Member
The OP started a thread asking about 19" v 21" wheels/tires. The differences are undeniable so the advice we've given is solid. Why you feel the need to do mental gymnastics to act like choosing 19" over 21" offers no benefits? Nobody claimed any of the differences were life changing but that doesn't mean that they aren't real. Nobody suggested spending $6k was a requirement. Saying if it really was the best option it would be standard is a bit silly since it's not like cost isn't factored in when the manufacturer makes these decisions. This is why there's an aftermarket for people to improve the performance of their car at a cost they feel is worthwhile. That last part is purely subjective & what may seem a good value to you may not to me. Overall though if everything else is equal a 19" is better (and cheaper) to live with day to day than a 21" wheel. No reason arguing to what degree... Better is better.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
@SSedan
Would you agree that replacing your OEM wheels with $1200 - $1800 flow cast "fugazi forged" wheels with minimal (.01 secs) to no performance or efficiency gains is also a waste of money or as you stated: "...folks mislead into buying things where the benefits were oversold to them."
People are already spending thousands for the same technology that is already on their car from the factory and in some cases worse?
Most people on here have also never tracked or been on a track with their DD or any car and if they are already spending $100K for a car that is at the edge of tech, why would they stick with 1924's wheel tech (Bugatti Type 35 anyone)?
Why do many of the performance brands use fully forged wheels on their premium product and some go even further with carbon fiber wheels?
Forged Wheel
Source: Forged Wheels - SuperAlloy Industrial Co., Ltd.
Function
Would you agree that replacing your OEM wheels with $1200 - $1800 flow cast "fugazi forged" wheels with minimal (.01 secs) to no performance or efficiency gains is also a waste of money or as you stated: "...folks mislead into buying things where the benefits were oversold to them."
People are already spending thousands for the same technology that is already on their car from the factory and in some cases worse?
Most people on here have also never tracked or been on a track with their DD or any car and if they are already spending $100K for a car that is at the edge of tech, why would they stick with 1924's wheel tech (Bugatti Type 35 anyone)?
Why do many of the performance brands use fully forged wheels on their premium product and some go even further with carbon fiber wheels?
Forged Wheel
Source: Forged Wheels - SuperAlloy Industrial Co., Ltd.
Function
- Higher Strength
- Better Stiffness
- Design Oriented
- Better Durability
- Higher Elongation
- Higher Impact resistance
- Higher material yield and fracture
- Better material flow texture
- Tighter microstructure
- No surface pinhole
- Ultra-bright radiance
- Weight
- Better steering
- Less mass and better fuel economic
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Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
Today it was above 50 degrees and they performed great... so I guess my comments are limited to low temps....
Ostrichsak
Well-Known Member
This mirrors my experience as well. It's almost as if they engineered an "Ultra High Performance All-Season" tire in tread & other aspects but then opted for a rubber compound that doesn't remain supple much like an Ultra High Performance compound in colder temps the way an All-Season tire should.
beatle
Active Member
A tire performing more poorly in cold temperatures wouldn't surprise me. My other car with max performance summer tires feels terrible when temperatures approach freezing. It's like the tires turn to bricks I always accepted the temporary flat spotting to be a compromise for extra grip with that category of tire. I was just surprised that the A/S 3+ had that much compromise since they are still considered an all-season tire. Though my car is unlikely to see much snow, I still wanted to have some confidence in its braking ability in the cold.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
I bought the 19" TST Flow Forged from TSportline last fall. Have had them on all winter and they've worked out great. No major difference in range due to the new tire/wheel combo. I had 21's previously. I don't have to worry about road rash on the wheels anymore. Flow forged is a superior method to cast, I believe.
I really liked the Space Gray too. It was hard to choose between that and Matte Black, which I obviously went with. It came down to simply getting something that was different than the 21s which were gray. Plus I may decide to get the windows tinted dark, and maybe black out the chrome at some point. The ride difference with 19" wheels and more sidewall on the tire is much smoother. I didn't mind the sportier/harsher ride with the other wheels, but I do like not worrying so much about potholes and bad roads.
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