2023 Model Y no USS discussion, incl. Discussion of Tesla Vision Firmware

[hmadsen]

Hopefully they will update the software but the reality that the USS is completely missing and vision is inherently flawed - because I want a machine to do things better than a human can with vision and not be limited every time it rains or snows or is muddy and the views get obstructed. But I am still learning and I hope to discover more to love. Hard to remain optimistic when it feels distinctly like I got screwed.
I had no idea that they would be basically downgrading the brand new cars, making the older used cars more valuable at a much lower cost. It was a bad investment for me and I don't trust the auto driving feature because it doesn't feel believable. It's of course too late to do anything about it, and it was the minute I drove it off the lot after they had me check off that I was agreeing to buy a car without the ultrasonic sensors. Of course I didn't know fully what that meant and I was too excited about driving the car off the lot and reacting to the pressure of buying from inventory and how that deal would be gone if I didn't agree to it today. The whole hype of Tesla being different from car salesman who trick people into bad purchases is basically garbage. No amount of research that I was capable of would have shown me this, because all the research was based on the previous recent version. It wasn't apparent to a beginner that the brand new car I was buying had changed so drastically and so simply, by a single message that popped up on the screen, and actually after I made the purchase, as I was about to drive it off the lot. I was naive enough to think Tesla SC people were more straightforward and that this car is the future.
It's just kind of hard to believe these cars will ever be what the research that I based my buy on were.

Yeah i also do not understand the "We dont need the sensor everyone else is using, we can do everything with vision" idea.

Before i got my 2023 MY LR i owned a Chinese EV, it had USS and 3 radars (1 forward and 2, one in each rear corner to do rear cross traffic alert).

I actually feel the auto pilot feature in the Tesla is 95% ok, i very rarely have fantom braking and it is doing a lot better than the Chinese car i had, even though it had the sensors, i just still feel that an actual radar is a lot better, not least in bad weather.

A few years back i was driving on the motorway in very foggy conditions, this was the car before the Chinese EV, it did not have any Radar or even the ability to auto-brake.

Suddenly an app i have running started alerting me of something up ahead (User reported) so i slowed down which was a good thing, because suddenly the fog got a lot more dense and traffic was stopped inside of the dense fog, i was able to stop in time and so was the truck behind me. I just know that in such a situation the radar would have picked up the stopped traffic, but there is no way in h*ll the vision based system would, as it can not see through dense fog any better than i can.

I know this is far from an everyday event, atleast here in Denmark, but not having the radar in that situation seems a lot less safe than having it.

I would argue that when all cars have radar the number of accidents would decrease a lot. (Just looked it up, cars fitted with AEB has been involved in 38% less accidents in the EU)

 

[ionsphere]

Yeah i also do not understand the "We dont need the sensor everyone else is using, we can do everything with vision" idea.

Before i got my 2023 MY LR i owned a Chinese EV, it had USS and 3 radars (1 forward and 2, one in each rear corner to do rear cross traffic alert).

I actually feel the auto pilot feature in the Tesla is 95% ok, i very rarely have fantom braking and it is doing a lot better than the Chinese car i had, even though it had the sensors, i just still feel that an actual radar is a lot better, not least in bad weather.

A few years back i was driving on the motorway in very foggy conditions, this was the car before the Chinese EV, it did not have any Radar or even the ability to auto-brake.

Suddenly an app i have running started alerting me of something up ahead (User reported) so i slowed down which was a good thing, because suddenly the fog got a lot more dense and traffic was stopped inside of the dense fog, i was able to stop in time and so was the truck behind me. I just know that in such a situation the radar would have picked up the stopped traffic, but there is no way in h*ll the vision based system would, as it can not see through dense fog any better than i can.

I know this is far from an everyday event, atleast here in Denmark, but not having the radar in that situation seems a lot less safe than having it.

I would argue that when all cars have radar the number of accidents would decrease a lot. (Just looked it up, cars fitted with AEB has been involved in 38% less accidents in the EU)

I'm in the NE US and we have fog fairly often. We also have rain, mud, sleet, and you know, darkness. This is the time of year it starts getting dark at 430pm, so lots of opportunity to drive in darkened roads.
All situations you need something better than vision. I sure hope Tesla makes up for this tremendous faux pas for people who had enough faith in them to buy their current new vehicles.

 

[OldManCan]

Vision alone will never suffice for true autonomous vehicles. Musk suggests "if humans can drive with vision alone why shouldn't the cars be able to do the same?". Well, he is either very short sighted or is choosing his words carefully to support his commercial choices. I bought my MYLR knowing what it can and can't do and totally pleased with it so far despite its design constraints. Let's not kid ourselves, until the market pressures push Tesla to correct these deficiencies there is not much that can be expected to change.

Referring to this little news piece that had given us some hope last year thinking Tesla might head back in the right direction but it turned out to be be partially true... Tesla says it is adding radar in its cars next month amid self-driving suite concerns ...

I believe the Radar is back inside the Hw4 cars

Tesla teardown confirms the presence of the new radar in HW4-equipped vehicles - Tesla Oracle

but it is not clear when or if the Autopilot or FSD will use the radar

 

[hmadsen]

Vision alone will never suffice for true autonomous vehicles. Musk suggests "if humans can drive with vision alone why shouldn't the cars be able to do the same?". Well, he is either very short sighted or is choosing his words carefully to support his commercial choices. I bought my MYLR knowing what it can and can't do and totally pleased with it so far despite its design constraints. Let's not kid ourselves, until the market pressures push Tesla to correct these deficiencies there is not much that can be expected to change.

Referring to this little news piece that had given us some hope last year thinking Tesla might head back in the right direction but it turned out to be be partially true... Tesla says it is adding radar in its cars next month amid self-driving suite concerns ...

I believe the Radar is back inside the Hw4 cars

Tesla teardown confirms the presence of the new radar in HW4-equipped vehicles - Tesla Oracle

but it is not clear when or if the Autopilot or FSD will use the radar

Not that it will mean any difference to me as i have a HW3 Vision only MY LR, but i wonder if Tesla is going to reactivate the radars on the pre-Radar-removal model 3 and model y.

They still have the "old" Radar, it has just been deactivated so could be re-activated.

Would offcourse blow the "We dont need no stinking radar" argument of Musk's completely out of the water if he had all pre 2023 cars and all from-HW4 cars have the radar functioning.

If this was to happen i wonder if it would be possible to retrofit and get the "old" radar model fitted to Vision only MY and M3.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Not that it will mean any difference to me as i have a HW3 Vision only MY LR, but i wonder if Tesla is going to reactivate the radars on the pre-Radar-removal model 3 and model y.

They still have the "old" Radar, it has just been deactivated so could be re-activated.

Would offcourse blow the "We dont need no stinking radar" argument of Musk's completely out of the water if he had all pre 2023 cars and all from-HW4 cars have the radar functioning.

If this was to happen i wonder if it would be possible to retrofit and get the "old" radar model fitted to Vision only MY and M3.

Not going to happen. The only paper feature difference the non-radar has is the distance can be set to 1 and top speed 85 mph, that's not enough to reactivate it.

As for HW4, even if Tesla uses that radar (which they have not so far, it's not even present in the higher volume models, only in the Model S/X), it's a completely different unit so the software would be different.

 

[hmadsen]

Not going to happen. The only paper feature difference the non-radar has is the distance can be set to 1 and top speed 85 mph, that's not enough to reactivate it.

As for HW4, even if Tesla uses that radar (which they have not so far, it's not even present in the higher volume models, only in the Model S/X), it's a completely different unit so the software would be different.

My Vision only MY LR does not have a problem with Adaptive Cruise control it works a lot better than my previous EV that had the radar, the only reason i would like it back is for those instances where the weather is bad (heavy rain or fog) to work in conjunction with the vision system.

In these cases the radar is without a doubt better than the vision feature and i would also argue that even the "old" radar is better than no radar in these instances.

Mine is born without it, but if i had bought one that has the radar i would be fuming if they just decided to turn it off, giving me worse safety that with the radar.

Also...Tesla must have an idea that the radar is somewhat relevant, otherwise, why would they then re-introduce it in their cars.

I get that it is a "HD" radar, it probably has better resolution, but i dont see why that would mean that the older radar with lower resolution should not be usable anyway.

 

[OldManCan]

Yeah i also do not understand the "We dont need the sensor everyone else is using, we can do everything with vision" idea.

Before i got my 2023 MY LR i owned a Chinese EV, it had USS and 3 radars (1 forward and 2, one in each rear corner to do rear cross traffic alert).

Great example - corner radars or cameras would be great to manage cross traffic. FSD today stops properly and creeps forward to "see" cross traffic when joining a main road at a T junction. It does make me nervous seeing how much forward it needs to creep to let the pillar mounted cameras to see oncoming traffic.

Comparing to a human joining the same T junction, the pillar cameras will be about 2 feet behind considering most drivers would lean over and and increase their viewing angle as much as possible. Therefore the pillar mounted side view only camera can't match the human capability in this sense.

 

[stopcrazypp]

My Vision only MY LR does not have a problem with Adaptive Cruise control it works a lot better than my previous EV that had the radar, the only reason i would like it back is for those instances where the weather is bad (heavy rain or fog) to work in conjunction with the vision system.

In these cases the radar is without a doubt better than the vision feature and i would also argue that even the "old" radar is better than no radar in these instances.

Mine is born without it, but if i had bought one that has the radar i would be fuming if they just decided to turn it off, giving me worse safety that with the radar.

Again that can't really be easily quantified, so Tesla won't really care. If the visibility is bad, AP can't be active anyways given it relies on vision to see the lane lines. What matters is the AP functionality remains largely the same, which it does. FSD Beta have also gotten much better since switching to Vision.

Also...Tesla must have an idea that the radar is somewhat relevant, otherwise, why would they then re-introduce it in their cars.

I get that it is a "HD" radar, it probably has better resolution, but i dont see why that would mean that the older radar with lower resolution should not be usable anyway.

The HD part is the main reason, supposedly that will fix some of the syncing and false positive problems they had in the previous radar (the rationale used to justify its disabling). However given it remains unused and is in a small fraction of cars, Tesla might not end up using it anyways.

 

[ionsphere]

Great example - corner radars or cameras would be great to manage cross traffic. FSD today stops properly and creeps forward to "see" cross traffic when joining a main road at a T junction. It does make me nervous seeing how much forward it needs to creep to let the pillar mounted cameras to see oncoming traffic.

Comparing to a human joining the same T junction, the pillar cameras will be about 2 feet behind considering most drivers would lean over and and increase their viewing angle as much as possible. Therefore the pillar mounted side view only camera can't match the human capability in this sense.

Yes, and I keep expecting that a machine would be doing things better than a human.

 

[hmadsen]

Again that can't really be easily quantified, so Tesla won't really care. If the visibility is bad, AP can't be active anyways given it relies on vision to see the lane lines. What matters is the AP functionality remains largely the same, which it does. FSD Beta have also gotten much better since switching to Vision.

The thing is, i am not even talking about the radar in a AP context with this, this is more in the AEB context.

I have had situations where the car has said "Lowering Autopilot speed due to visibility", that's fine with me, but what i really wanted was for the car to do EAB if it senses something is in front of me.

A typical car radar can "see" for 300-600 feet, which is A LOT better than what i (And vision) can see in the fog.

300 feet is more than enough for the AEB to avoid a crash at most any speed (Except maybe speeds on the German autobahn )

The HD part is the main reason, supposedly that will fix some of the syncing and false positive problems they had in the previous radar (the rationale used to justify its disabling). However given it remains unused and is in a small fraction of cars, Tesla might not end up using it anyways.

I just hope they have this sussed out before i swap my Tesla, maybe even for a new one.

Also i hope they put the blinker arm back before, here we have loads of roundabouts and it seems quite the faff, to have to press the right blinker button when the steering wheel is turned 90 or 180 degrees to the left.

At the current rate i expect to keep the Tesla for maybe 3-4 years, so at that time i hope everything has been sorted out, the radar has been put in, the blinker arm has returned (Or is an option atleast) and then offcourse they might have gotten to putting a lower front camera in and maybe even HW5

Who knows, maybe i won the lottery and i will have money to buy a Model X

 

[Tardis5]

I am thinking about trading in my ‘17 MX 90,000 miles long range and with free super charging for a ‘23 MY and transfer the super charging. On positive side improved electronics etc. however everyone I’ve seen with new models that have Tesla vision say it’s awful and enhanced autopilot lacks auto park and summons though you still have to pay full price “update coming soon”. General opinion about Tesla vision? Hopes that Juniper comes soon and fixes it? Should I just leave Free super charging on my X and hope for another 100,000 miles?

 

[Tam]

I am thinking about trading in my ‘17 MX 90,000 miles long range and with free super charging for a ‘23 MY and transfer the super charging. On positive side improved electronics etc. however everyone I’ve seen with new models that have Tesla vision say it’s awful and enhanced autopilot lacks auto park and summons though you still have to pay full price “update coming soon”. General opinion about Tesla vision? Hopes that Juniper comes soon and fixes it? Should I just leave Free super charging on my X and hope for another 100,000 miles?

You've got experience with Tesla radar and uss already.

Tesla Vision is unproven and its parking distance measurement is all over the place.

So you should not count on Tesla Vision "soon" but you should have some other rationales such as new warranty with free tow...

 

[Tardis5]

You've got experience with Tesla radar and uss already.

Tesla Vision is unproven and its parking distance measurement is all over the place.

So you should not count on Tesla Vision "soon" but you should have some other rationales such as new warranty with free tow...

I have an extended warranty good for another 10,000 miles and free towing from AAA (At least for 200 miles). After reading lots of posts on this thread, I think I’m going to keep my MX and M3 and wait for the Juniper which may solve these issues. At least hope so. We didn’t know about the lack Of functionality of EAP till after we ordered the new Y. We couldn’t get any details on why the trade in value for our cars seemed low since neither had been in an accident and pretty much close to new condition. Just a “if you don’t like the price, you‘re welcome to sell it privately. Even though our MX still has an MCU1 and could use some upgrades, better the devil you know…..

 

[Tam]

I have an extended warranty good for another 10,000 miles and free towing from AAA (At least for 200 miles). After reading lots of posts on this thread, I think I’m going to keep my MX and M3 and wait for the Juniper which may solve these issues. At least hope so. We didn’t know about the lack Of functionality of EAP till after we ordered the new Y. We couldn’t get any details on why the trade in value for our cars seemed low since neither had been in an accident and pretty much close to new condition. Just a “if you don’t like the price, you‘re welcome to sell it privately. Even though our MX still has an MCU1 and could use some upgrades, better the devil you know…..

It's customary that Tesla would offer a low trade in value than private.

It's even worse as Tesla value goes down so fast. Model X used to cost $104,990 in 2021 but now $79,990, that is $25,000 drop.

 

[Tardis5]

It's customary that Tesla would offer a low trade in value than private.

It's even worse as Tesla value goes down so fast. Model X used to cost $104,990 in 2021 but now $79,990, that is $25,000 drop.

Realize that. It was more the disrespect. Buying our other Teslas was a pleasurable experience. It now feels like buying a fake Birkin bag off a NYC street corner. At least then you know what your getting.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I have an extended warranty good for another 10,000 miles and free towing from AAA (At least for 200 miles). After reading lots of posts on this thread, I think I’m going to keep my MX and M3 and wait for the Juniper which may solve these issues. At least hope so. We didn’t know about the lack Of functionality of EAP till after we ordered the new Y. We couldn’t get any details on why the trade in value for our cars seemed low since neither had been in an accident and pretty much close to new condition. Just a “if you don’t like the price, you‘re welcome to sell it privately. Even though our MX still has an MCU1 and could use some upgrades, better the devil you know…..

Tesla generally offers low trade in values, largely because they don't want to deal with it and many times they may auction off the cars via third party auctions, so they need to ensure they don't lose money on it once third party is considered. They would much rather you sell the car yourself.

 

[AJ..]

Hi, wondering if anyone found these useful/workable (esp 2023 Y with no front sensors for parking). My context is only front camera/parking.
Thank You!

GLK License Plate Backup Camera HD Front Rear View Reverse Camera with 7 LED Night Vision 170 Degree Viewing Angle Waterproof Backup Camera for Cars https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y5Z4WFP?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_dp_7K9QKNSA9TPX999J5PE7

trying to bump this with the hope of finding anyone who experienced this or something similar? Thanks

 

[RichAZ/CapeCod]

I would like to experiment with Summon. I watched the Tesla video on how to access it. The option is not offered in the Autopilot menu. I have the three month FSD working. What am I doing wrong??

Rich

 

[Tam]

I would like to experiment with Summon. I watched the Tesla video on how to access it. The option is not offered in the Autopilot menu. I have the three month FSD working. What am I doing wrong??

Rich

Current hardware requirements for summon is radar and sonars.

Newer cars lack both so Tesla promises that it will work someday in the future without the need for those requirements above.

 

[RichAZ/CapeCod]

Current hardware requirements for summon is radar and sonars.

Newer cars lack both so Tesla promises that it will work someday in the future without those requirements.

Swell...