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3000km (1864 miles) trip and battery degradation confusion

tezcatcatl

Member
Jan 23, 2021
79
17
Netherlands
Hello everyone.
I recently did a 3000km one way trip and did lots of testing on my driving / range.
And I have a question that bugs my mind.

I own a 2016 P90D, 772hp version. 81000km (50300 miles) on the odometer.
The specs I see on the internet states that my rated range is 449km (279 miles).

Now.. I charged the car to %100. Then I drove with 100-110km/h (62-68 miles/h), Range mode and Chill mode on, aircon off, around 24 Celsius (75 F), I did around 438km of range (272 miles) with one charge. Which looks really really good considering the car has done 81000 kilometers in 5 years and the rated value is 449km right? %97.55 of the rated range after 5 years and 81000 kilometers!
Well, maybe wrong? Let me explain..

In this part of trip, I stopped for charging after 355 kilometers and it showed another 83km of range remaining, which I think was quite realistic.
According to the car, in this 355 kilometers, it consumed 56.1kwh, 158wh/km.
So, I should have had another 90 - 56.1 = 33.9kwh remaining right? Very best case scenario.. I mean, aircon was off, it was day time, no other serious consumption was expected. But lets say I lost 1.9kwh for keeping the car on, multimedia system, battery cooler etc. (That means around 0.54kwh consumption for 3.5 hours, just by being ON)
That leaves us a 32kwh in the tank.

Now pay attention, the average consumption in the last 50km of that 355km was 147kwh, even lower than the average of the whole trip. Tesla technician told me that remaining range is calculated over the average of last 50km and the SoC.
So..

32kwh * 0.147 = 217 km. That would be the remaining range I expect IF I did 355km with 56.1kwh.
Instead I got 83km. What does that mean?

83 x 0.147 = 12.2 kwh SoC.
So after spending 56.1kwh on driving, and guesstimate of 1.9kwh on multimedia etc., my remaining charge was 12.2kwh instead of 32kwh.

56.1 + 1.9 + 12.2 = 70.2kwh.
To me, it looks like my battery capacity is down to ~70kwh.

I repeated this test with different driving conditions, aircon on / off, range mode on / off, sport mode etc.
All my calculations show ~70kwh of capacity.
Unless the car really uses 20kwh in 3 hours just by being powered up...

Now.. I do get the %97.55 of rated range if I drive easy on the highway.
However, I feel like I should get many more kilometers out of my car if it is really 90kwh.

Expected range calculations considering nothing else using up battery:
90kwh -> 90 / 0.158 = 569 km (353 miles)
85kwh -> 85 / 0.158 = 538 km (334 miles)
80kwh -> 80 / 0.158 = 506 km (314 miles)
75kwh -> 75 / 0.158 = 474 km (294 miles)
70kwh -> 70 / 0.158 = 443 km (275 miles)

How many kwh could the car possibly use up by just being ON during this 3.5h trip, with no aircon, no headlights, nothing except the multimedia system running?
To me it looks like I lack ~20kwh of my battery capacity, which is %22.22.
And I still get %97.55 of the rated range.

I am confused.. o_O
Any inputs?

(Tesla warranty on the battery promises %70 of capacity over 8 years. Losing 22.22 means I still got 77.78 so I can't claim warranty)
 

tezcatcatl

Member
Jan 23, 2021
79
17
Netherlands
Iirc the capacity of the 90kw pack is about 87kw of which only 82ish kwh is usable

82 / 0.158 = 519km

82 - 70 = 12kwh of capacity I am still missing
Over 3.5 hours, that's a consumption of 3.4kwh per hour.

Also weird that I get %97.55 of rated range with 70kwh instead of 82kwh (with %15 capacity loss in that case)
 

aerodyne

Active Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,789
2,906
Los Angeles
82 / 0.158 = 519km

82 - 70 = 12kwh of capacity I am still missing
Over 3.5 hours, that's a consumption of 3.4kwh per hour.

Also weird that I get %97.55 of rated range with 70kwh instead of 82kwh (with %15 capacity loss in that case)

There is a tremendous amount of posts on various threads on this issue, such as "Sudden loss of range after 2019.."

Some points with out referring to the above...

You don't say the speed you were driving at. 100 vs 125km/hr can make a big difference.

The 90 packs, as mentioned above, were never 90 packs. They also experience high initial degradation, sometimes as high as 10%, after a few years and say 30,000Km. The degradation then levels off. Usable battery capacity of 70 KwH is not abnormal.

Keep in mind that the Tesla range calculator includes the 4Kwh buffer, which the BMS may not allow you to use, that is, you have to drive past zero Km.

Also, you make be a victim of what some here call "Range gate". This is where when you charge to 100%, you are at a lower voltage than 4.2 volts per cell, and not at 100% of a new car.

All that said, I'd trade my car gladly for a 90 pack. They charge faster and don't have regen, charge speed limits, and high pump usage like the 85 packs...

If you want to learn more, Highly recommend you get the Scan My Tesla app, a CAN bus reader and adapter cable for say 50 euros...you will be able to see the battery condition and power useage...
 

tezcatcatl

Member
Jan 23, 2021
79
17
Netherlands
There is a tremendous amount of posts on various threads on this issue, such as "Sudden loss of range after 2019.."

Some points with out referring to the above...

You don't say the speed you were driving at. 100 vs 125km/hr can make a big difference.

The 90 packs, as mentioned above, were never 90 packs. They also experience high initial degradation, sometimes as high as 10%, after a few years and say 30,000Km. The degradation then levels off. Usable battery capacity of 70 KwH is not abnormal.

Keep in mind that the Tesla range calculator includes the 4Kwh buffer, which the BMS may not allow you to use, that is, you have to drive past zero Km.

Also, you make be a victim of what some here call "Range gate". This is where when you charge to 100%, you are at a lower voltage than 4.2 volts per cell, and not at 100% of a new car.

All that said, I'd trade my car gladly for a 90 pack. They charge faster and don't have regen, charge speed limits, and high pump usage like the 85 packs...

If you want to learn more, Highly recommend you get the Scan My Tesla app, a CAN bus reader and adapter cable for say 50 euros...you will be able to see the battery condition and power useage...

Thank you for the input!
I wrote that my speed was between 100km/h and 110km/h during this trip.

I did read many other topics and saw what you wrote here mentioned in those topics as well. However, it does not explain my situation, I think.
My point being is, the Rated Range for a brand new 90kwh car is 449km right?
I make 438 with a 5 years old car that has 81000kms on its odometer.

Everyone says you can't make the rated range, even with a brand new car.
But I did %97.5 of it with a battery that shows 70kwh when you calculate over the consumption of 0.158wh/km.

So.. If my battery was brand new, which means in this case 82kwh usable..
That would mean I would be able to make 82 / 0.158 = 519km of range.
That is 70km above the rated range. Everyone says you can't make the rated range. But my car shows I could do better.

About the 4kwh buffer, that would mean 4 / 0.158 = 25km of extra range.
438 + 25 = 463km of total range.
Which means 463 * 0.158 = 73kwh of usable capacity instead of 90.

So this brings me to the conclusion below:
"My car lost %18.8 of its battery capacity, which is 17kwh. However, it is still able to make the %97.55 of rated range.
And thus, if I had bought my car brand new, I would be able to make way over the rated range."
 

aerodyne

Active Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,789
2,906
Los Angeles
Thank you for the input!
I wrote that my speed was between 100km/h and 110km/h during this trip.

I did read many other topics and saw what you wrote here mentioned in those topics as well. However, it does not explain my situation, I think.
My point being is, the Rated Range for a brand new 90kwh car is 449km right?
I make 438 with a 5 years old car that has 81000kms on its odometer.

Everyone says you can't make the rated range, even with a brand new car.
But I did %97.5 of it with a battery that shows 70kwh when you calculate over the consumption of 0.158wh/km.

So.. If my battery was brand new, which means in this case 82kwh usable..
That would mean I would be able to make 82 / 0.158 = 519km of range.
That is 70km above the rated range. Everyone says you can't make the rated range. But my car shows I could do better.

About the 4kwh buffer, that would mean 4 / 0.158 = 25km of extra range.
438 + 25 = 463km of total range.
Which means 463 * 0.158 = 73kwh of usable capacity instead of 90.

So this brings me to the conclusion below:
"My car lost %18.8 of its battery capacity, which is 17kwh. However, it is still able to make the %97.55 of rated range.
And thus, if I had bought my car brand new, I would be able to make way over the rated range."

There are some cases where a newer car will show like 1-2% higher than rated range. I don't think that is likely in your case.

Keep in mind there was an update that changes how the BMS calculates range.

At 100%, now the car will multiply the consumption constant by the nominal pack size, say 82kwh. As you use the battery, it gradually subtracts the 4Kwh buffer as you approach zero. You will never get the rated range driving at the rated consumption, it will be like 5% less.

Even now, this is changing. Reports indicate the BMS has been updated again, to allow use of half the buffer.

Lastly, make sure you are not using the ideal range, that is what it is called in the US. I believe that in the EU and elsewhere, ideal range is called rated range, but it is not the same!
 

tezcatcatl

Member
Jan 23, 2021
79
17
Netherlands
I am using the Typical range. Which is the more realistic one.
We have Rated and Typical.

So my Typical range with this battery pack that feels like a 70kwh, is able to make trip which is %97.55 of the "Rated" range of this car, when it is brand new.
Which is very weird after 81000kms and 5 years.
AND it is very weird that if 70kwh can do this, why would they show a rated range so low for a 90kwh pack?

I am beyond confused..
 

aerodyne

Active Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,789
2,906
Los Angeles
I am using the Typical range. Which is the more realistic one.
We have Rated and Typical.

So my Typical range with this battery pack that feels like a 70kwh, is able to make trip which is %97.55 of the "Rated" range of this car, when it is brand new.
Which is very weird after 81000kms and 5 years.
AND it is very weird that if 70kwh can do this, why would they show a rated range so low for a 90kwh pack?

I am beyond confused..


Don't be concerned, you are not the first!

Rated means the same as ideal in the US.

Both will give you an unrealistic high range.

For more details, you could search for "rated vs ideal"

Or, just enjoy your car, set energy to percent, navigate to charge stations as needed, and let the BMS take care of the battery.
 

tezcatcatl

Member
Jan 23, 2021
79
17
Netherlands
It is not unrealistically high!
I can make MORE than the rated range the car shows me. With a battery pack that is supposed to be 90kw but is 70kw.

My rated range is 375 and I make 438..
 

cousin_IT

Face provided by boredhumans.com
Oct 27, 2020
343
254
Netherlands
I got the same car, lower mileage and by far not as much range as you got. I only get 360 km out of a 100% charge when driving 107 km/h. Wish I got your range 😀
 

tezcatcatl

Member
Jan 23, 2021
79
17
Netherlands
I got the same car, lower mileage and by far not as much range as you got. I only get 360 km out of a 100% charge when driving 107 km/h. Wish I got your range 😀
Ah! Happy to find someone with the same car, but sorry to hear that you get even lower mileage :/
May I ask what wh/km average your car shows in this case when you travel with 107km/h?
 

cousin_IT

Face provided by boredhumans.com
Oct 27, 2020
343
254
Netherlands
Ah! Happy to find someone with the same car, but sorry to hear that you get even lower mileage :/
May I ask what wh/km average your car shows in this case when you travel with 107km/h?
I have a pre-refresh, not sure about your model. I get around 180 w/km. Mostly it hovers around 187 and sometimes lower (guessing wind).
 

tezcatcatl

Member
Jan 23, 2021
79
17
Netherlands
I have a pre-refresh, not sure about your model. I get around 180 w/km. Mostly it hovers around 187 and sometimes lower (guessing wind).
Yeah same car, pre-refresh.
Hms. Yeah it's really confusing me.

Did you buy your car new? If so, what was the range in the beginning?

180wh x 360km / 1000 = 64.8kwh.
These cars are supposed to be 90kwh. 😅
 

cousin_IT

Face provided by boredhumans.com
Oct 27, 2020
343
254
Netherlands
Yeah same car, pre-refresh.
Hms. Yeah it's really confusing me.

Did you buy your car new? If so, what was the range in the beginning?

180wh x 360km / 1000 = 64.8kwh.
These cars are supposed to be 90kwh. 😅
No I didn't, bought it from the first owner. He had it as a 2nd car and never paid much attention to range. According to this (Dutch) site the range was 404 km at 212 wh/km (back in the days that we could still drive 120 km/h on the Dutch highways). Now that we're driving slower our range should be better (212/190*404=455 of range) but in my case it's about 20% less. Still not 30% but I have 2,5 years of warranty left on my battery.
 
Last edited:

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,330
11,672
Riverside Co. CA
(Tesla warranty on the battery promises %70 of capacity over 8 years. Losing 22.22 means I still got 77.78 so I can't claim warranty)

This quote about "the battery warranty" is applicable to the model 3. I dont have a model S so I am not sure, but I thought the model S battery warranty was "for failure" and there was NO promise of any specific capacity at a specific time, like there is on a model 3.

Can someone familiar with model S warranty confirm whether the model S battery warranty is also "70% at 8 years" or is it (as i remember reading), "8 years for failure of the battery, with no promise of any specific capacity remaining".
 

cousin_IT

Face provided by boredhumans.com
Oct 27, 2020
343
254
Netherlands
This quote about "the battery warranty" is applicable to the model 3. I dont have a model S so I am not sure, but I thought the model S battery warranty was "for failure" and there was NO promise of any specific capacity at a specific time, like there is on a model 3.

Can someone familiar with model S warranty confirm whether the model S battery warranty is also "70% at 8 years" or is it (as i remember reading), "8 years for failure of the battery, with no promise of any specific capacity remaining".
I picked it up from this site.

Upon reading the terms (here in ENG, here in Dutch) in more detail it does not seem to correspond with the article. I guote:

Model S and Model X - 8 years or 150,000 miles (240,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity* over the warranty period. Any Model S or Model X purchased prior to the effective date specified on the cover page of this New Vehicle Limited Warranty is subject to the applicable Battery and Drive Unit Warranty effective as of the date of purchase.

The original T&C that I'm suppose to be able to download in my account aren't there so I don't now what my warranty is.
 
Last edited:

tezcatcatl

Member
Jan 23, 2021
79
17
Netherlands
No I didn't, bought it from the first owner. He had it as a 2nd car and never paid much attention to range. According to this (Dutch) site the range was 404 km at 212 wh/km (back in the days that we could still drive 120 km/h on the Dutch highways). Now that we're driving slower our range should be better (212/190*404=455 of range) but in my case it's about 20% less. Still not 30% but I have 2,5 years of warranty left on my battery.

Hms 404km with 0.212wh/km means 85.65kwh capacity. Which sounds like what it should be as many people say 5kw is hidden, and you can drive beyond 0km with that 5kw. So they do deliver a 90kwh pack but in 5 years we lost 20-25% of capacity then.
I wonder if this depreciation will slow down / stop at some level or not.
Or atleast if we lose %70 within 8 years, we can get a new battery before warranty is over :)


I think so too. @tezcatcatl do you have a copy of the T&C?


Unfortunately I don't have it :/ But my service also told me 8 years warranty on battery and drive unit.
 

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