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Battery Strategy and Degradation at 10k Miles
- Thread starter gad1976
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How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I personally believe I have extremely little range anxiety, I aim to arrive at super charging stops around 5%. I minimize charging time by riding the highest point of the charging curve and get to the next stop.
Odd that you would arrive at that conclusion.
Because you are worrying about your battery so much. You seem to feel that the range of the car makes a big difference.
I drove a Leaf with 88 mile range. In many instances, I didn't have the ability to get it from point A to point B. There were trips where I was truly anticipating having to stop for hours to charge at 120V, maybe even multiple times.
The probability that a Tesla has to do that is Zero compared to the Leaf. Whether that car has decreased from 330 miles to 200 miles, doesn't really bother me, for I know that I'll be able to make it and that the resale value of the car won't change.
Last year I towed a boat from ATL to Florida. It was the first trip for the boat and unexpectedly, the car's range went down. And when I say down, I mean to 75 miles. But after a little validating (and having to drop the trailer to make it into the next stop below 0) the car made it.
Yep, Tesla Superchargers along this route are better than 75 miles apart.
Does the max range of 250 vs 325 really matter? Not anymore. And everyday it gets to be less and less.
So going through that much work to protect the battery and to make less than 10% difference and then realize that aging will probably impact you more than anything that you could do, well. There's a little anxiety in there somewhere.
I never said any of this practically makes sense for an average driver, in fact I said basically the opposite in point F and 6 of my original post.
Some people want to hand wash cars. Is it a waste of time? I'd say yes. I'd say the difference is irrelevant. But if they want to do differently then good for them.
Some people want to change oil after 5k miles when oil analysis says it can go 10-15k. Is it a waste of time? I'd say yes. But some like that feeling of fresh fluids in their car, good for them.
Maybe I want to spend some time trying to push the limits of minimizing battery degradation.
Could it be part of the hobby of owning EV's? Yes
Could it be part of something an EV owner chooses to do for fun? Yes
Could it be a giant waste of time that is irrelevant to many people? Yes
Doesn't mean I can't do it or discussing it is FUD. Doesn't mean I should be psychoanalyzed for personal anxiety on a message board LMAO. If you don't want to discuss it feel free to ignore and go post in other threads, there's thousands of them here.
It's odd to me someone would take the time to come into a thread and spend many minutes typing a hundred sentences about what a waste of time it is.
Some people want to hand wash cars. Is it a waste of time? I'd say yes. I'd say the difference is irrelevant. But if they want to do differently then good for them.
Some people want to change oil after 5k miles when oil analysis says it can go 10-15k. Is it a waste of time? I'd say yes. But some like that feeling of fresh fluids in their car, good for them.
Maybe I want to spend some time trying to push the limits of minimizing battery degradation.
Could it be part of the hobby of owning EV's? Yes
Could it be part of something an EV owner chooses to do for fun? Yes
Could it be a giant waste of time that is irrelevant to many people? Yes
Doesn't mean I can't do it or discussing it is FUD. Doesn't mean I should be psychoanalyzed for personal anxiety on a message board LMAO. If you don't want to discuss it feel free to ignore and go post in other threads, there's thousands of them here.
It's odd to me someone would take the time to come into a thread and spend many minutes typing a hundred sentences about what a waste of time it is.
Well the video I linked to was an interview with Professor Jeff Dahn. He's not your typical "YouTubers". He has credentials to provide real insight on this issue. Per his wikipedia bio;
"Jeff Dahn OC FRSC (born in 1957 in the United States and emigrated to Nova Scotia, Canada in 1970) is a Professor in the Department of Physics & Atmospheric Science and the Department of Chemistry at Dalhousie University. He is recognized as one of the pioneering developers of the lithium-ion battery, which is now used worldwide in laptop computers, cell-phones, cars and many other mobile devices. Although Dr. Dahn made numerous contribution to the development of lithium-ion batteries, his most important discovery was intercalation of Li+ ions into graphite from solvents comprising ethylene carbonate, [3] which was the final piece of the puzzle in the invention of commercial Li-ion battery. Nevertheless, Dahn was not selected for the 2019 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, which recognized only John Goodenough, M. Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino.[4]"
zoomer0056
Active Member
For me it's up there on top like cleaning points, gapping plugs and regular oil changes on an ICE ages car. I charge after every trip to 55%. At first I followed the Tesla book and charged to 90%. Then I started reading TMC. Changing my habits has shown some battery recovery. I don't know if it's real. The Tessie app showed 1.2% less degradation. I have 13k miles on a Feb 2022 MSLR. Tessie showed much worse degredation as compared to the fleet at first. My car did some degredation recovery (1.2%) and has level out. Again, I only know what Tessie tells me.
Enjoy the exercise. Also realize some of what you read here isn't always correct. @ewoodrick says many are in for clicks.
Some just take it too far in my opinion on the ideas that counter what is normal charging principles. don't know why, but hey everyone's boat floats for a reason.
Look here advocating lowering regen because one wants to baby the battery. Yes don't let foot of accelerator to fast as one is charging battery. Why do we buy electric cars? Why do they have regen?
Range recovery happened to me yearly especially in lower miles. Get much back as temp is warm back up. Get less and less at around 190k. Stayed flat since. If temps are in 50s that's cold. Many think it's because of what they do. When you drive in two months what people drive in a couple years on Tesla's. One knows how they tick.
@msinfo care to share what is wrong in the quote and my response?
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50-80% daily or 80-100% trip do you consider NOT "normal charging principals"? Then what is? outdoors did I miss your answer?
Where did lowering regen comment came from? Charging to 55% effects regen? What, how? outdoors , would you like to explain so it makes a bit more sense? Thx
outdoors after your edit about regen with AAKEE comments at least adds a reference point to otherwise what was out of the blue statement. Thx
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The OP came in just recently and mentioned @AAKEE and the research in this post #33 to be exact.
Battery Strategy and Degradation at 10k Miles
Read the post. What should my ideal charge percentage be? Then tell me what you think.
So would you limit your regen to help your battery be better? One still has to slow down, feather away. Manage too much cause and accident. Oh shoot maybe even use brakes. Haven't replaced mine yet at 250k, and don't want to start now Do I want this suggestion to a new driver to an EV? Or even the hint. Many new EV drivers don't even know what regen is. So one is going to tell them how to deal with it and baby the battery by driving a little different.
I think it is valuable to look at author's that some consider experts or close to it here as they have posted in so many thread's. So take it for what you will. One can take advice, but I like to look at the totality of the advice. So here in the post you disagreed with I just showed some other advice. So someone could also see what type advice they also give. I am sure that will be explained away, but really I am not trying to wreck anyone's efficiency goals. I hold for my car the longest drive recorded by model. I love efficiency, but I think one could take it too far. So educate that's the answer. Anytime someone questions the data. How dare one? Really come on.
Yes limit one's regen so it doesn't stress battery. How far is too far? That is up to the OP. After all this is the internet. Should check some resources.
You like the 50-80% because it fits what you want to read and hear. You get some confirmation bias and feel good about it. How about the regen? Going to follow that as well? Stats my friend.
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Science and researchers do not in general think of ”store”.
Batteries degrade from usage (cycles) and time (calendar aging). This is the approach from researchers and science.
Calendar aging actually happens all the time. Cycling during charging and discharhing.
For a user perspective we can think that calendar aging is the non operating - non cycling time, but in fact the batteries ahe from time when used as well.
The average car might do 15-20K km or 10-15K mi each year. That comes to about one hour discharging each day (comlon aversge speed sbout 50-55 kph over a year).
Charging, in europe we often use three pase up to 11kW, so about 1-2 hours average.
If you like to think that driving/charging do not cause calendar aging you still end up with 21 of 24h of non operating period each day.
So it do not matter how you would like to see it - calendar aging happens all the time or at least 87.5% of the time.
Forget the ”storage” thinking for your own car. The battery can not know if you just parked the car until tomorrow or next week or if you ”stored it” so it will degrade perfectly by the calendar aging schedule anyway.
Tesla says (in all EPA applications silce the behinning of time) that if battery packs is to be stored they should have 15-50% SOC.
The cells in the packs do not know they are ”stored” so they just decide to follow the calendar aging principles (where 15-50% is good, and beginning at 15% ensures it will not drop too low during a loooong storage period).
The summof the research tell us how batteries will behave in our cars. In fact 95% of all research reports are done in the context of electrical vehicles andcrefer to EV, EV usage like the common owner might use it.
Trying to circumnavigate the sum of the research is like staying that the earth is flat.
From research we know quite much.
Its not wils guesses or rumors or myths, it is facts.
I think it even was possible to predict your batterys degradation and capacity despite not knowing more than the age of the car, roughly your charging habits and the ~climate where you live.
The reason for the calculation to hit wuite well was that the sum of research knows how batteries degrade.
There is quite some research on this.
Yes, regen reduces the cycle depth (DoD) with about 10-15%.
It also makes it possible to use a lower charging level, which is good.
This report covers most parts of lithium battery life-degradstion mechanisms etc.
Regenerative braking is of course covered in depth:
Good research report
Another report
Link 1
A third report
Link 2
This shows how regenerative braking affects the battery life.
No Ire = no regenerative braking
Max Ire = maximum regenerative braking which gave a regenerative 15% energy back.
The degradation curve is drawn without taking the saved energy in account = for the same degradation the car will do 15% more miles (as they need 15% less energy charged - 15% less charge cycles).
(Tested cells is Panasonic NCA, like Tesla use).
Using regenerative braking will proloung the cycle life with about as many percent as the cars regenerative energy in percent is.
Most teslas I have used SMT and read the values show about 10-15% regen of the total charged energy.
[Efit]The SOC ranges used can be seen here:
While it is obvoius that the lower SOC range is best, and cut the degradation in half, still this test was doing continous cycles so the cyclic aging part is higher than the calendar aging. 500FCE is about 200K km or 125K mi, so probably 10 years irl.
The real curve for calendar vs cyclic aging is that the calendar aging is covering 90% of the degradation the first five years or so, but still the calendar shing line show us that it will be cut innhaöf at low SOC.
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Its refreshing to see someone here that does not simply parrot statistically insignificant data and BS YouTube advice videos. Occasionally there is good info on these forums. Just have to get past the defensive replies.
I have 14000 miles and lost 10% driving these miles in temperate Michigan climate since getting the car in February 2023. I usually charge to 80/70 percent. Daily. only used a supercharger 3 times. Drive in Chill mode. All for what? Nothing. Lost 10% in less than a year. Now luckily I dont gove a crap and the battery is insured to over 100k. My statistically insignificant post (like all other advice pundits here) means nada other than guys stop fretting and arguing over the battery. Just like a ICE car. Drive your Tesla like crap and it will degrade sooner. Eat garbadge get vascular disease and die younger LOL so on.
Intersting. Checking back in again. I have 25k miles now (in 6 months). I have lost 3.29% at this point. I'm pretty happy with that. You can see below that I do charge to 100% roughly once a week.
I also do a lot of supercharging. About 40% of my charging is supercharging. I do hope to bring that number down, but given my distances I have no choice.
I still charge to 50% as soon as I get home while the battery is still warm. Then set it to start charging in time to be at my desired level at my departure time. If I charge to 100% I leave as soon as it gets there and within an hour I am back down to 80%. So the car is seldom at a high state of charge. I drive it down quickly.
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