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8.16 kW DC Solar Panels but never generating more 6.5kW

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Hi,

I had Tesla 8.16 kW DC Solar Panels installed in June 2020 but they never generate more 6.5kW even after cleaning the panels...Across entire year, 6.5kW is the maximum generated power which is typically around noon to 1pm. I'm trying to understand whether getting 8.16 kW is realistic. I have a family member that installed a 4.8 and is getting 4.8.

The inverter installed is a solaredge SE7600H - USOOOBSU4 that maxes out at 7.6kW. Wanted to check here on whether this would be a cause as to why I'm not getting the maximum possible. My panels face south on the roof and has very clear and direct access to the sun across the whole day. Nothing obstructing.

I have a total of 24 Hanwa panels.

Thank you!!!
 
Contrary to what others have said above, on a fully sunny day with warm temps and clear skies, it's easy to get close to the limit of the inverter as your setup looks similar to mine except I have the Tesla inverter. Also, my contract estmates 13,300kwh annual production. Seems like your panels aren't all working.

Curve shape without clipping is irrelevant since 24 panels or 12 panels would have the same curve but different peak and area under the curve.

IMG_8228.jpeg
 
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Contrary to what others have said above, on a fully sunny day with warm temps and clear skies, it's easy to hit the limit of the inverter as your setup looks similar to mine except I have the Tesla inverter. Seems like your panels aren't all working.

View attachment 942273

Thank you! Here is my May 13th...I find it amazing that the peak on that day didn't even hit 6.5 when I've hit 6.5 in Mar and Apr this year.

Screen Shot 2023-05-29 at 12.56.40 PM.png
 
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What was your annual production last two full years?
The sky may be cloudless yet not clear enough to produce inverter max.
As indicated, you may have a few panels not working properly or you don't really have 340W panels.

ps. a 4/12 roof is 18.45 degrees; 3/12 is 14 degrees.
 
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Is there anything that you think might cause my peak from April to be the same as July while I have a normally looking bell curve in both?
No, that is super perplexing to me. With a normal looking bell curve (no flat top) there's no clipping going on. Assuming no shading, constant inverter efficiency, and all panels in one plane, a day's peak output should primarily depend on just the minimum angle between the panel normal and the sun's location in the sky, and the operating temperature at that time. [There are other factors that I'm not so familiar with, like the greater absorption of the atmosphere when the sun is lower in the sky, and indirect illumination from dispersion, but I don't think they would provide a big seasonal variation.]

I suppose with the warming weather, between March and June those two factors could roughly balance each other out, although I would be impressed if it balanced to within 100W over all three months. What happens from July to September?

Cheers, Wayne
 
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What was your annual production last two full years?
The sky may be cloudless yet not clear enough to produce inverter max.
As indicated, you may have a few panels not working properly or you don't really have 340W panels.

ps. a 4/12 roof is 18.45 degrees; 3/12 is 14 degrees.
The last couple of years the annual production is about the same. 2021 was slightly better than 2022.

> ps. a 4/12 roof is 18.45 degrees; 3/12 is 14 degrees.
Could you elaborate? I didn't understand this.
 
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No, that is super perplexing to me. With a normal looking bell curve (no flat top) there's no clipping going on. Assuming no shading, constant inverter efficiency, and all panels in one plane, a day's peak output should primarily depend on just the minimum angle between the panel normal and the sun's location in the sky, and the operating temperature at that time. [There are other factors that I'm not so familiar with, like the greater absorption of the atmosphere when the sun is lower in the sky, and indirect illumination from dispersion, but I don't think they would provide a big seasonal variation.]

I suppose with the warming weather, between March and June those two factors could roughly balance each other out, although I would be impressed if it balanced to within 100W over all three months. What happens from July to September?

Cheers, Wayne
Peak from last year Jul through Sep is also 6.5kW. This is the part where from the feedback from other users where they are suggesting that some of the panels may not be working...If that were the case, I assume I wouldn't have reached peak of 6.5kw in March correct?

Or does malfunction come on an inverted relationship...in that it's simply not being able to absorb (not sure if that's correct term) the maximum sunlight in July but it is able to absorb up to a certain point in March...with the absorption not being related to a hard stop at any given amount of sun hence no clipping?
 
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The last couple of years the annual production is about the same. 2021 was slightly better than 2022.


Could you elaborate? I didn't understand this.
What was the actual annual production? how close did it come to estimate.

Certainly. Roofs are constructed mostly on a scale use of rise in inches per 12 inches of run so a carpenter's square can be used,
4/12, 4" rise for 12" run. Degrees not used in common practice.
From there, degree slope of roof can be calculated. So, you have either a 14-degree slope on the roof or 18,5 degrees.
 
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Certainly. Roofs are constructed mostly on a scale use of rise in inches per 12 inches of run so a carpenter's square can be used,
4/12, 4" rise for 12" run. Degrees not used in common practice.
From there, degree slope of roof can be calculated. So, you have either a 14-degree slope on the roof or 18,5 degrees.
Except that 3.5" in 12" is also a plausible if less common roof pitch, so 16 degrees is plausible. However, I have no idea of the accuracy of a phone-based elevation meter.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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I read somewhere that if the inverter gets too hot that it will limit the power. My inverter is completely under the sun (no shade) for most of the day. Should I look into that? Forum users said that if it hits 115 degrees that it would start being left efficient. But I imagine that I wouldn't have a normal looking bell curve if that happened right? Thank you!
This is unlikely the problem you are looking for. You have something closer to a constant deficit. An inverter that is temperature limited will show up as dropouts in your output.

A simple thing to to do is report that you are 18% below your projected output. Tesla should at least respond to that. They are normally very conservative about their estimates so that fact you are significantly under should warrant some attention.

You can also request access so you can use the SolarEdge app if don't believe your power production is below par.

Wow, the grilling needed to get SolarEdge monitoring access... | Tesla Motors Club
 
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Peak from last year Jul through Sep is also 6.5kW.
OK, so what you are saying is that just looking at clear days between March and September, you always get an unclipped sine curve production that peaks at about 6.5 kW, regardless of the month.

The sun's elevation in the sky varies by 23.5 degrees (and back) over that time period. So if your roof angle was your latitude (37 degrees) minus half that variation (12 degrees), or 25 degrees (about 5.5" in 12"), and the azimuth was due south, then the cosine multiplier would vary between 100% and cos(12 deg) = 97.8%. I.e. you'd only expect a 2.2% variation in peak power from that seasonal effect. Which is plausibly in accordance with what you've described.

But you've also said that your roof slope is just 16 degrees. So now the cosine multiplier would vary between 100% and cos(21 deg) = 93.3%, or a variation of 6.7%. Or if 6.5 kW is annual peak peak, the daily peak between March and September should vary from 6.1 kW to 6.5 kW.

If you're actually seeing less variation than that, I don't have a good explanation. But it's also plausible that the data gathering and your interpretation of it is not sensitive to a 6% variation. Or that other seasonal variations (temperature, diffuse illumination effects, etc) that I don't have a good handle on happen to counteract that variation enough to reduce it below the detection level.

Regardless, the failure modes of the equipment and installation are not likely to cause unclipped sine curve production with just a reduced peak, other than via a reduction in the DC rating of the working panels (i.e. panels are rated less than 340W, or say 4 panels are just not producing for some reason).

Cheers, Wayne
 
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Contrary to what others have said above, on a fully sunny day with warm temps and clear skies, it's easy to get close to the limit of the inverter as your setup looks similar to mine except I have the Tesla inverter. Also, my contract estmates 13,300kwh annual production. Seems like your panels aren't all working.

Curve shape without clipping is irrelevant since 24 panels or 12 panels would have the same curve but different peak and area under the curve.

View attachment 942273
I have hit the 11.4 kw of my inverters, even once saw 11.7
 
Upvote 0
Hi,

I had Tesla 8.16 kW DC Solar Panels installed in June 2020 but they never generate more 6.5kW even after cleaning the panels...Across entire year, 6.5kW is the maximum generated power which is typically around noon to 1pm. I'm trying to understand whether getting 8.16 kW is realistic. I have a family member that installed a 4.8 and is getting 4.8.

The inverter installed is a solaredge SE7600H - USOOOBSU4 that maxes out at 7.6kW. Wanted to check here on whether this would be a cause as to why I'm not getting the maximum possible. My panels face south on the roof and has very clear and direct access to the sun across the whole day. Nothing obstructing.

I have a total of 24 Hanwa panels.

Thank you!!!
Due to losses in the panels and wiring you will actually only get 80% output. Take your 8.16kW and multiply it by 80% = 6.528kW.
 
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Speaking with experience. I've got a 2008 solar panel and inverter installation. There are, on the roof, enough panels to, theoretically, generate 9.02 kW of power, assuming a nice clear day, at the right temperature, and with the sun's rays hitting the panels perpendicularly.

Having said all that, I have two inverters in the garage, one capable of 4.8 kW output, the other capable of 3.0 kW of output. That's 7.8 kW. Hey!?! Where did the (9.02-7.8) = 1.22 kW go? That's (1.22/9.02)*100 = 13.5% losses!

I should note that I have nifty plots of the power output of the system, Two, maybe three times a year, the two inverters would peak and slightly flat top at their maximum power. So, most of that 1.22 kW really disappears. This is not a drill. Where does it all go?

Just so we're clear on all this: I really, truly am a EE and was and am not scared of math. I investigated this at the time.
  1. I*I*R losses. One is running significant current through wires and such that total 100 feet or so from the panels to the inverters. Copper has resistance. The power loss in copper goes as current^2 * R.
  2. Panel mismatches. You guys are going to love this one. In my system, the Big Inverter is connected to an array of panels, where there are strings of 9 panels in series; three of these strings are run in parallel, yielding 27 panels panels total. Now, think about manufacturing variations.
    1. First, say that a single string of 9 of these panels in series is exposed to sunlight. Without drawing any current, one would have some voltage across that string of 9 panels. Do the same for the other two strings of 9 panels. Bad news: The three strings will not have the same voltages. What happens if one string has more voltage than another string? Um. Current would try and flow through the other string, that's what. For that reason, there are Diodes (well, solar panels are diodes, but let's not go there) that prevent reverse current - but that means that one string is doing all the work and the other isn't doing anything. OK, that doesn't actually happen, but wait for step two.
    2. Second: Say that the inverter has a single string of 9 panels. Since these panels are in series, the current on all these panels are equal. What does the inverter do? It draws current out of the panels. If it tries to draw some ridiculously maximum current, given the resistance of the panels (under sunlight, natch), the voltage will drop. Power is current x voltage; so if V is minimum, it doesn't matter how much current you have, you get No Power. Likewise, suppose one draws a minimal amount of current. Tiny current x bigger voltage = low power, too. So, what the inverter does, is it steps the load up and down until power is maximized.
    3. Third: Fun, cool: But, MANUFACTURING VARIATIONS!!. There is no guarantee that a bunch of panels, under the same sunlight, will have the same maximum power at the same current. Some will have more; some will have less; and, if one takes them one at a time, the peak (V*I) products will be different for each of the panels. So, just by having them in series, we lose a certain pecentage of the rated power.
    4. Fourth: It's bad enough that I've got 9 panels in a string. But I've got three strings in parallel. Oops. Even more losses from the maximum possible rated.
  3. Inverter losses. Inverters got components. Those components get warm when they're working, be they inductors, capacitors, resistors, or just good old wire. There's 1%-2% losses right there, thank-you-very-much.
  4. Temperatures. I alluded to this earlier. As it happens, silicon solar cells generate an internal voltage when the sun doth shine. The general idea is that current can be tapped out of the anode of the solar panel and returned to the cathode of the solar panel, completing the circuit. However, there Is No Such Thing As A Solar Panel Without Defects. Defects allow ye electrons to go across the barrier backwards. This is very much temperature dependent. The colder the panel is, the less it tends to do this (do my classes in silicon processing appear evident now?), but that's in the winter time, when the sun is down low and not up all that much. When you really want that power is when it's 104F in the shade.. and that's when the panels don't work as good as one would like so much. I happen to have amorphous solar panels; they're much worse at this than all the crystalline ones you guys are running, but both types do this.
So, it's been a number of years since I went through the math, but, in general:
  • Most of the losses are in mismatched panels.
  • About 1/3 of the losses are in I*I*R getting from the roof to the inverters.
  • Rest is in the inverters, a couple more percent.
Where you guys luck out: DC-DC power converters.

Turns out that there's this class of electronic widgetry called a DC-DC converter. It takes in DC voltage and current; then switches this back and forth at $DIETY's own speed through a magnetic, ferritic transformer; on the output side, more transistors and a little filtering convert this to another voltage and current. By fooling around with pulse width modulation, one can go from, say, 20V and 20A (400W) on the input side of such a converter to, say, 10V and 40A on the other. Or by fooling with the PWM in a different direction, for 20V and 20A in, one can get 40V and 10A out. Less about 1%-2% losses in the transistors and ferrites. Main point: this is adjustable under electronic control.

By the way: These are cheap, on the order of $20-$50 a pop in quantity. And very, very reliable.

So, hang onto your hats. Say one has a string of 10 400W panels. Each panel is directly connected to its own DC-DC converters. On the DC-DC converter output sides, the outputs are all connected in series. And, through funky electronic control, we tell the collection of these DC-DC converters that their total voltage shall be 300V. No more, no less. Now, 300V, maximum sunlight or something, so we have 4000W. Nominal current would be 4000W/300V = 13.33A on all the output sides of the power modules. And, at first glance, the voltage per panel would be 400/13.33 = 30V.

Here's where it goes weird. Suppose under that batch of sunlight, one of the ten panels is generating 420W. Another is generating 380W. Another is generating 402W. And so on.

The guy who's generating 420W? Well, the output side still has 13.33A; and we let the output voltage rise to 420/13.33 = 31.5V. The one that's generating 380W? Still got 13.33A, they're all in series, so we get 380/13.33 = 28.5V. The total voltage is 300V, always: But the voltage on each panel is allowed to vary, while the current is adjusted by the Big Inverter to maximize power. Under these conditions, each panel generates the maximum power that it is capable with that sunlight, at that angle, at that temperature. Minus 1% or 2% loss in the DC-DC converter. (Yes, they are that efficient).

So, with you guys and modern solar panels, you lose 1% to 2% in the panels with the DC-DC converters; then another 1% to 2% in the inverter that converts from DC to 240 VAC; and the rest is in I*I*R losses in the wires. That's probably 8% better efficiency, at least, then what I've got on my roof.

Older attempts at this kind of thing was to put DC to 240 VAC inverters on each panel. But that's more expensive. Besides.. Note that I mentioned that my hypothetical string of 10 panels had a total voltage of 300V. There's a reason I mentioned 300V: That's what a lot of battery-back up power walls use for a battery voltage.

If you got more questions, ask 'em. I got answers.
 
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This is unlikely the problem you are looking for. You have something closer to a constant deficit. An inverter that is temperature limited will show up as dropouts in your output.

A simple thing to to do is report that you are 18% below your projected output. Tesla should at least respond to that. They are normally very conservative about their estimates so that fact you are significantly under should warrant some attention.

You can also request access so you can use the SolarEdge app if don't believe your power production is below par.

Wow, the grilling needed to get SolarEdge monitoring access... | Tesla Motors Club
I will do that, thank you!
 
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What was the actual annual production? how close did it come to estimate.

Certainly. Roofs are constructed mostly on a scale use of rise in inches per 12 inches of run so a carpenter's square can be used,
4/12, 4" rise for 12" run. Degrees not used in common practice.
From there, degree slope of roof can be calculated. So, you have either a 14-degree slope on the roof or 18,5 degrees.
What was the actual annual production? how close did it come to estimate.

Certainly. Roofs are constructed mostly on a scale use of rise in inches per 12 inches of run so a carpenter's square can be used,
4/12, 4" rise for 12" run. Degrees not used in common practice.
From there, degree slope of roof can be calculated. So, you have either a 14-degree slope on the roof or 18,5 degrees.
11,200 and 11,070 kw 2021 and 2022.

I measured further from the panel and it was 18 degrees from the app. So it's like 18,5 degrees. Thank you!
 
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Maybe I can help here. My son used to have a solar PV company and I helped them a lot.
The specified maximum (peak) power of a panel is under ideal condition. And there are many factors that bring down power output.
Let me tell you the most obvious:
- The angle of the panel to the Sun, it must be in a 90 degree angle. Most panels are not, definitely not all the time since the inclination of the sun varies over the day. Also the angle it has moving east to west will get lower light intensity.
- Temperature. Solar panels perform best when they are cold!! Cold weather (a rain shower just before sunshine helps a lot!). Often people install them close to roofs, making things worse since there is no airflow under the panels cooling them.
- Serial panels. Often panels are connected in strings, serial. Without optimizers, the worst performing panel dictates the maximum current. Install optimizers, even beter micro inverters (one per panel).
- Bad cells. The quality of the cells in a panel may vary a lot. Specially some cheap panels suffer from that. You can find out by making infrared photos of the panels. Since in a panel the cells are serial connected, you have the previous problem on a smaller scale.
- Degradation. Cells suffer from age and heat, their performance degrades over time. Can be up to 15% every 10 years.
- Dirt. They easiest thing to solve.

Hopes this clarifies things a bit.

- Bert
 
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Maybe I can help here. My son used to have a solar PV company and I helped them a lot.
The specified maximum (peak) power of a panel is under ideal condition. And there are many factors that bring down power output.
Let me tell you the most obvious:
- The angle of the panel to the Sun, it must be in a 90 degree angle. Most panels are not, definitely not all the time since the inclination of the sun varies over the day. Also the angle it has moving east to west will get lower light intensity.
- Temperature. Solar panels perform best when they are cold!! Cold weather (a rain shower just before sunshine helps a lot!). Often people install them close to roofs, making things worse since there is no airflow under the panels cooling them.
- Serial panels. Often panels are connected in strings, serial. Without optimizers, the worst performing panel dictates the maximum current. Install optimizers, even beter micro inverters (one per panel).
- Bad cells. The quality of the cells in a panel may vary a lot. Specially some cheap panels suffer from that. You can find out by making infrared photos of the panels. Since in a panel the cells are serial connected, you have the previous problem on a smaller scale.
- Degradation. Cells suffer from age and heat, their performance degrades over time. Can be up to 15% every 10 years.
- Dirt. They easiest thing to solve.

Hopes this clarifies things a bit.

- Bert
One more thing:
Beware of situations with serial (string) connected panels and objects casting shadow over one or more panel.
In that case the panel(s) in the shadow bring down the performance of the entire string.
Also good EV companies use software to simulate your setup, angles, local weather, include objects like trees and chimney. Using historical weather data it provides a reasonable forecast of the production you can expect.
Ask for such a calculation, it can avoid unrealistic expectations.

- Bert
 
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