Advice Wanted on EV Under $30k: Used S60, Wait for Used M3, Other?

[cwerdna]

Don't get a Leaf or i3. Leaf batteries lose range badly, even the recent ones, and have poor durability. i3s are just overpriced, even in the used market, for what they are.

The best chemistry of battery we know of on Leaf so far is the "lizard" pack (Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement - My Nissan Leaf Forum) used in model year '15 and '16 S 24 kWh versions. The 30 kWh packs don't seem to be holding up well in hot climates even post-update (UPDATE - Nissan Has Software Fix For 2016-17 LEAF 30-kWh Battery Reporting Issues). It is unknown how the 40 kWh packs are holding up (not enough time). We really have no idea about the 62 kWh packs as those cars just came out this year.

There's one Nissan shill who will make claims otherwise about the improved durability of the latest packs but never has provided ANY data, nor has Nissan. Given his prior and current behavior (shilling, trying to confuse (e.g. he did that during the 2012 Leaf severe degradation in Phoenix chapter) and misinform (e.g. calling tools like Leaf Spy "entertainment")), his claims have little credibility with me. We really need to wait for the above cars go thru at least two hot summers to see.

The one saving grace is that 30, 40 and 62 kWh Leafs have 8 year/100K capacity warranty (instead of 5 years/60K miles) but the warranties have always been worded by capacity bars, not % of remaining capacity. So, who knows what 8 capacity bars really is now? One must hit 8 bars before capacity warranty expiration to receive a replacement battery.

I agree about the i3. They're overpriced and a lousy value.

 

[maximizese]

I agree about the i3. They're overpriced and a lousy value.

If they're overpriced and a lousy value, would that make it a value proposition to buy a used i3? My brother is considering one now that they can be had around $12K. They live in Cambridge, Ma where they typically drive less than 100 miles a week.

As for the Leaf, the degradation is alarming (especially in hotter climates). The revised "Lizard" pack saw a big improvement, but I can't understand why Nissan doesn't just face the music and incorporate an active cooling system like just about every other EV manufacturer. I was browsing through the mynissanleaf forum and was shocked to see that replacement battery pack for the 1st gen Leaf moved from $5,500 to $8,500. Some extreme cases of degradation has the cars getting as little as 35 miles...which is still usable on small islands and congested metro areas. I considered getting a used Leaf as our first EV, but was dissuaded by the degradation factor.

For the OP, I would strongly consider a used Bolt in the $20K-$25K ballpark if and only if 180+ mile range is needed. If they can charge at work, an inexpensive used 80-mile range EV might be the most affordable way to dip his toe into the world of EV.

 

[TonyT]

How are you with handy? Yes high mileage S has some risks. With that said, if your handy then fixing is not bad. But if your going to bring your car to Tesla for every fix, then 30K budget is not that great with the high mileage S.

Most will be fine, but there is that risk, and if you have to spend all your budget on just buying the car then any issue could be a huge hassle for you.

Of the 2 we have 1 had been perfect so far after 6 months. One has small issues, 1 handle went bad, 1 cracked windshield and sunroof, magnet coming off charging door, contactors failing (has had squeal since new so expecting this and also warranty work.) But I can pretty much take care of all issues so I'm not concerned and can fix pretty much all of them cheaply.

A few friends have had MCU (eMMC) failure.

 

[cwerdna]

For the OP, I would strongly consider a used Bolt in the $20K-$25K ballpark if and only if 180+ mile range is needed.

A used Bolt for $25K is silly unless it is super well-equipped when new LT's start at $26K (or less) before $3750 Federal tax credit: Fremont - New Bolt EV Vehicles for Sale.

New Premiers start at $32,179 right now at Fremont - New Bolt EV Vehicles for Sale before $3750 tax credit.

 

[jebinc]

How are you with handy? Yes high mileage S has some risks. With that said, if your handy then fixing is not bad. But if your going to bring your car to Tesla for every fix, then 30K budget is not that great with the high mileage S.

Most will be fine, but there is that risk, and if you have to spend all your budget on just buying the car then any issue could be a huge hassle for you.

Of the 2 we have 1 had been perfect so far after 6 months. One has small issues, 1 handle went bad, 1 cracked windshield and sunroof, magnet coming off charging door, contactors failing (has had squeal since new so expecting this and also warranty work.) But I can pretty much take care of all issues so I'm not concerned and can fix pretty much all of them cheaply.

A few friends have had MCU (eMMC) failure.

How much did the MCU failure cost to fix? Warranty?

 

[neroden]

Thanks for continuing to post, everyone -- it's super helpful! I still need to figure out a way to test a high mileage MS -- especially an 85. There's one used 60 available at a dealer nearby, but they want me to get loan preapproval to even test it. I guess they get a lot of requests. I could do that easily, but seems a hassle when I'm just starting my search.

I tested a 2018 Bolt Premier today with like every option. I liked it a lot, but I didn't fall in love. On paper (and online forums), the Bolt has been crushing for my situation...so I was super excited to try it. Here's a few very quick impressions:

• The torque was amazing, but I've driven a M3 LR so it didn't surprise me. It was still better than any ICE car I've owned, of course.

• Seating was comfortable enough and I liked the height -- much better than my Altima.

• Trunk was way smaller than I thought (definitely a backseat-going-down situation for my golf clubs), but the under-storage was cool and can hold a lot. Way smaller than my Altima, though...and any Tesla.

• Screen was nice and I love Android Auto/ACP integration...something I use a lot in my wife's CX-5 and really like.

Well, this might be an issue for you with Tesla. Tesla doesn't have Android Auto, doesn't have Apple CarPlay, and doesn't even have aptX, so the Bluetooth support is really low audio quality. Tesla's audio interface is poor and their audio player is frankly bad. If you care a lot about playing your own music, you'll be happier in a Bolt than a Tesla, sorry to say. (See the very long running "Tesla USB Music Bugs" thread for more.)

• I was shocked how much the lack of the little things bothered me in such an expensive car. No adaptive cruise, weak lane departure assist (IMO), not even a power driver's seat...let alone memory settings. Compared to my wife's CX-5 (not a luxury car, mind you), it felt very utilitarian.

I think for the right price, a used Bolt would be a real value proposition and a great intro to the world of EV's for me. Few range worries, solid reliability, some remaining warranty. But for new, even at 30% off MSRP, it still feels overpriced to me. I obviously know the bulk of the cost is the battery and drivetrain, so I tried to look past the little stuff. But for whatever reason, I left wanting more. Maybe I was super psyched by all the glowing reviews from people online. And I was probably spoiled by all the Tesla research I've done. Who knows.

I also drove a 2019 Leaf, by the way...although I'm not considering it very seriously due to my concerns about long-term battery health. It also felt pretty pedestrian aside from the torque. Equipped with much better comfort/convenience options -- those little things I mentioned above. But still, a lackluster screen, interface, and interior that to me that screams "Sentra" rather than $35k MSRP.

Tomorrow I'm driving lower range, used EVs from MB (250e) and BMW (i3). I'm curious how much more luxurious the interiors they'll feel. I'm not a snob in the least (I drive an 11 year old Altima), but the CX-5 is like a luxury car without the price tag. Anyway, range on the MB and BMW concerns me -- especially in a Midwest winter or if the batteries degrade at all -- but like I said, I don't plan to road trip in the car. It was cool today to think about how I COULD do that in a Bolt, but I'm not likely to ever HAVE to.

Anyway, thanks again...and feel free to continue chiming in! This is going to be a hard decision!

I think your choices are really:
(1) Lightly used Chevy Bolt
(2) Heavily used Tesla Model S
(3) really cheap short-range car, where you would NEVER drive long distances -- but you'd have to buy it locally.

 

[TonyT]

How much did the MCU failure cost to fix? Warranty?

Some have been warranty, some I think were 3k.

 

[TonyT]

Actually one of my friends got a P83 13 with under 50k miles for 28k last month, so I think finding a good one is not hard. Prices have come down more since when I bought.

 

[IndyGopher]

Thanks for the additional posts. Great points on the possible maintenance costs on a used S (not to mention insurance costs mentioned earlier -- something I hadn't considered). I'm pretty handy and do all my own ICE maintenance now -- oil, filters, brakes, and other little things here and there. YouTube can get me through most anything, including framing my own basement which I'm doing right now Still, I'm a super frugal guy who's only ever bought new cars, so it definitely does frighten me to think I'd drop $27 - $30k on the car of my dreams only to have expensive things start to break. I know it's luck of the draw, but it does worry me.

I drove an i3 yesterday and it was my favorite test drive by far (with the exception of the M3 LR last year). The interior and handling actually felt like a luxury car, and the only option I really missed was Android Auto (which is definitely big for me, but not a deal breaker). The BMW infotainment was clunky (nav sucked), but the screen was large and clear for cameras and the like. It's unfortunately got the lowest electric range of any car I'm considering, and rather than buying new or very slightly used as with the others, I'd probably have to buy a 2016 or so to get it at a price I'm comfortable with...so warranty expiring soon. I might even have to go for the range extender version which has me continuing to do ICE maintenance from time to time.

I'm definitely torn, but agree that I'm down to basically 3 choices:

1) Lightly used Bolt (I see several fully loaded 2017 Premier advertised under $22k). No adaptive cruise, very utilitarian feel with hard plastics everywhere, but awesome range, fully electric, Android Auto, and may still have some bumper to bumper warranty remaining depending on mileage...and a lot of battery warranty remaining.

2) Heavily used MS ($27 - $30k). No adaptive cruise, no warranty remaining and the risk of expensive repairs, but obviously very luxury feel, fully electric, depending on battery size it could have less range than the Bolt but a better charging infrastructure (including free supercharging just down the street from me).

3) Lower range used i3 ($22k). Adaptive cruise and other creature comforts, a year or so of remaining bumper to bumper warranty (more if CPO), but still no Android Auto (so my phone is on the dash), limited range and would probably go for the REX for peace of mind and have ICE maintenance, weird looks (if I'm honest).

Option 4 is wait until I feel like I can afford a M3...whether that's by saving until I'm comfortable buying new or waiting a couple years until used come down. I can do that, of course...but it's hard to hold off when you start researching and test driving cars lol! Anyway, thanks again for chiming in, everyone. Each post is read, considered, and appreciated!

 

[TonyT]

Actually..... You can get adaptive cruse to add for less than 1k on the S...

 

[jebinc]

Thanks for the additional posts. Great points on the possible maintenance costs on a used S (not to mention insurance costs mentioned earlier -- something I hadn't considered). I'm pretty handy and do all my own ICE maintenance now -- oil, filters, brakes, and other little things here and there. YouTube can get me through most anything, including framing my own basement which I'm doing right now Still, I'm a super frugal guy who's only ever bought new cars, so it definitely does frighten me to think I'd drop $27 - $30k on the car of my dreams only to have expensive things start to break. I know it's luck of the draw, but it does worry me.

I drove an i3 yesterday and it was my favorite test drive by far (with the exception of the M3 LR last year). The interior and handling actually felt like a luxury car, and the only option I really missed was Android Auto (which is definitely big for me, but not a deal breaker). The BMW infotainment was clunky (nav sucked), but the screen was large and clear for cameras and the like. It's unfortunately got the lowest electric range of any car I'm considering, and rather than buying new or very slightly used as with the others, I'd probably have to buy a 2016 or so to get it at a price I'm comfortable with...so warranty expiring soon. I might even have to go for the range extender version which has me continuing to do ICE maintenance from time to time.

I'm definitely torn, but agree that I'm down to basically 3 choices:

1) Lightly used Bolt (I see several fully loaded 2017 Premier advertised under $22k). No adaptive cruise, very utilitarian feel with hard plastics everywhere, but awesome range, fully electric, Android Auto, and may still have some bumper to bumper warranty remaining depending on mileage...and a lot of battery warranty remaining.

2) Heavily used MS ($27 - $30k). No adaptive cruise, no warranty remaining and the risk of expensive repairs, but obviously very luxury feel, fully electric, depending on battery size it could have less range than the Bolt but a better charging infrastructure (including free supercharging just down the street from me).

3) Lower range used i3 ($22k). Adaptive cruise and other creature comforts, a year or so of remaining bumper to bumper warranty (more if CPO), but still no Android Auto (so my phone is on the dash), limited range and would probably go for the REX for peace of mind and have ICE maintenance, weird looks (if I'm honest).

Option 4 is wait until I feel like I can afford a M3...whether that's by saving until I'm comfortable buying new or waiting a couple years until used come down. I can do that, of course...but it's hard to hold off when you start researching and test driving cars lol! Anyway, thanks again for chiming in, everyone. Each post is read, considered, and appreciated!

Option 4, would be my vote.

 

[cwerdna]

1) Lightly used Bolt (I see several fully loaded 2017 Premier advertised under $22k). No adaptive cruise, very utilitarian feel with hard plastics everywhere, but awesome range, fully electric, Android Auto, and may still have some bumper to bumper warranty remaining depending on mileage...and a lot of battery warranty remaining.

As a '19, Bolt owner since end of Jan 2019, agree. It is rather disappointing that the gen 2 Volt and even the Cruze have better interiors than the Bolt. :/ At least my '13 Leaf on the front doors has a large soft touch fabric/felt piece and a soft touch plastic piece on the upper portion of the door panels.

As for Android Auto, I've never used it since I'm an iOS guy. CarPlay works fine for me. I use it w/my iPhone 8.

I've heard numerous complaints about Android Auto on Bolt but I'm not clear how much it lies w/the car, their phone and/or their USB cable. Some people have crap cables. It's funny that the car manual recommends using the one that comes with you phone. Well, my last two (work) Android phones have come with USB-C to USB-C cables (Nexus 5X and Pixel 3). The car doesn't have a USB-C port. There are lots of TERRIBLE USB-C cables out there...

And, no, it's going to be VERY hard for me to convert from iOS to Android. I don't like Android much, personally but I intentionally chose an Android phone as my work phone for numerous reasons.

 

[cwerdna]

If they're overpriced and a lousy value, would that make it a value proposition to buy a used i3? My brother is considering one now that they can be had around $12K. They live in Cambridge, Ma where they typically drive less than 100 miles a week.

That doesn't tell me much. What year and how many miles on it? How well equipped? i3's were overpriced as new to begin with and became an even worse value when the Bolt came out.

In July 2015, I paid $9,325 + tax and license for my '13 Leaf SV w/premium package, built 5/2013 w/12 capacity bars, under 24K miles and Leaf Spy SOH around 91%. It still had 11 months of basic warranty and over 2 years of EV system/powertrain warranty left.

It lost its 1st capacity bar in Nov 2017 w/just shy of 50K miles. I still have the car today, am past 65.5K miles and still at 11 capacity bars (Leaf Spy SOH around 81.xx to 83.xx). I've put it up for sale at work and gotten almost no interest. I've lowered the price to $6300 and CA registration is good for another 11 months (had just paid almost $200 to renew) but it hasn't helped w/the lack of interest.

 

[bnsn]

I just read through this thread, and I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm looking at a few options - mainly there is a used 2013 Model S 60 with 95k on it for $26k near me, or looking at buying a Model 3 SR+ as cheap as it gets, or leasing a Model 3 LR AWD for 3 years and shopping then for something I'll keep longer. Presently, I'm leaning toward the Model 3s, just don't know which one to do. The LR AWD seems better, but since there is no purchase option at the end of the lease (and not saying I would, my last 2 leased vehicles I turned back in as the purchase price wasn't worth it). But the LR AWD has AWD, and heated rear seats for the kids, and the other premium things that would be nice like 70 more miles of range. I'm sure I could live with the SR+ just fine though and since the financing would be roughly the same or cheaper than leasing the LR AWD, I'm actually thinking that's the way to go. But AWD in winter will be nice and the added range in winter will be nice.

 

[jebinc]

I just read through this thread, and I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm looking at a few options - mainly there is a used 2013 Model S 60 with 95k on it for $26k near me, or looking at buying a Model 3 SR+ as cheap as it gets, or leasing a Model 3 LR AWD for 3 years and shopping then for something I'll keep longer. Presently, I'm leaning toward the Model 3s, just don't know which one to do. The LR AWD seems better, but since there is no purchase option at the end of the lease (and not saying I would, my last 2 leased vehicles I turned back in as the purchase price wasn't worth it). But the LR AWD has AWD, and heated rear seats for the kids, and the other premium things that would be nice like 70 more miles of range. I'm sure I could live with the SR+ just fine though and since the financing would be roughly the same or cheaper than leasing the LR AWD, I'm actually thinking that's the way to go. But AWD in winter will be nice and the added range in winter will be nice.

LR AWD all the way, if you can swing it. I love our LR AWD. You also get more power and from 0-60 is around 4 seconds.

 

[dhanson865]

I vote none of the above. Instead of looking at the sticker price, look at the cost per year.

Historically you have felt it was time to move on when the car hit the 10 year mark. If you buy a 6 year old Model S for 30,000, you may feel the need for something newer 4 years from now. So the car cost you 7,500 per year.

If you buy a new model 3 for 40K and keep it for 10 years, that is only 4,000 per year. Newer technology, better range, faster charging for nearly half the price of that 30K model S.

$30,000 car isn't going to be worth $0 4 years later. You'll be able to sell it for something. Call it $10,000 on the pessimistic side and your year delta is $20,000 not $30,000. If it holds value better it might be $15,000. That totally changes the per year cost calcs you did.

 

[bnsn]

LR AWD all the way, if you can swing it. I love our LR AWD. You also get more power and from 0-60 is around 4 seconds.

Yeah, after writing that, I'm leaning that way too. I was just thinking that leasing vs buying was having me lean toward the SR+, but I've been fine with leasing for a while now (basically since 2010, I've leased 3 vehicles, bought the first after the lease was up for my wife, and after turning in my last lease, bought the current vehicle I'm driving which was my stepdad's when he couldn't drive any longer).

Based on the number of used Model 3's out there, I'm sure there will be plenty when the 3 year lease is up, so I shouldn't have to worry much about finding something. And maybe the Y will be an option then too.

 

[jebinc]

$30,000 car isn't going to be worth $0 4 years later. You'll be able to sell it for something. Call it $10,000 on the pessimistic side and your year delta is $20,000 not $30,000. If it holds value better it might be $15,000. That totally changes the per year cost calcs you did.

But I believe you may be assuming that 2013 won't have any major expenses, like a new MCU, etc., in the next three years. If it does, that will change the annual cost calculation as well. Also, the tech in a new M3 will be more fun than the tech in a gen 1 MS from 2013.

 

[jebinc]

Yeah, after writing that, I'm leaning that way too. I was just thinking that leasing vs buying was having me lean toward the SR+, but I've been fine with leasing for a while now (basically since 2010, I've leased 3 vehicles, bought the first after the lease was up for my wife, and after turning in my last lease, bought the current vehicle I'm driving which was my stepdad's when he couldn't drive any longer).

Based on the number of used Model 3's out there, I'm sure there will be plenty when the 3 year lease is up, so I shouldn't have to worry much about finding something. And maybe the Y will be an option then too.

Hear, hear!

 

[dhanson865]

But I believe you may be assuming that 2013 won't have any major expenses, like a new MCU, etc., in the next three years. If it does, that will change the annual cost calculation as well. Also, the tech in a new M3 will be more fun than the tech in a gen 1 MS from 2013.

That's a valid point, I just thought the post with $30,000 to $0 without mentioning maintenance/repair costs or resale value was an incomplete picture.

Personally I'm partial to the new front of the Model S/X and don't like the "bubble nose" so I'd be avoiding the older Model S for both cosmetic and repair cost reasons.

Also if you believe FSD robo taxi will happen within 10 years the Model 3 is likely to hold value much better (imagine if a 5-10 year old Model 3 with FSD is worth more than $30,000 what that does to the cost per year math). Even if you don't release it to the fleet, it'll have a higher resale value for those that would.

Say you pay for a $30,000 Model 3 now, pay $10,000 to add FSD later, and eventually sell it for $30,000 after driving it for 10 years. Your cost per year would be the FSD cost + repairs.