Air to Air Heatpumps / Air conditioning

[ElectricPolice]

One thing I'm struggling with is the ration of hardware costs to labor.

It seems very high for a job done by two in a day, especially as I have to make power available myself.

I’m with you completely on this hence not pushing the button myself yet.

When systems I’m looking at come out between £3.5-4.5k why does it need to be £7k+ when you go through an installer?

Daikin Multi Outdoor Condenser Air Conditioning - Heat Pump Units (I’m looking at multi-split with 3 indoor units, all exterior wall mounted)

I think the excuse ‘cost of living uplift’ comes into all this now. Nobody seems to want to work for “standard” business profit but instead everyone’s out for making stupid numbers. Sad thing is they’re getting it too!!!

There have been other posts on here for forum members looking for installers happy to take a quote from an F-gas qualified person.

If someone quoted me a grand for a days work to fit this I’d bite their hand off… probably?

 

[ElectricPolice]

Cost me £6,500 installed

4 x Rooms
1 x External compressor
3 x Peristaltic Water Pumps

Who did you use up your way?

Not too far from me I would imagine?

Seems a decent price for those units which I have been admiring along with Daikin Emura’s. Stylish

 

[PITA]

I’m with you completely on this hence not pushing the button myself yet.

When systems I’m looking at come out between £3.5-4.5k why does it need to be £7k+ when you go through an installer?

Daikin Multi Outdoor Condenser Air Conditioning - Heat Pump Units (I’m looking at multi-split with 3 indoor units, all exterior wall mounted)

I think the excuse ‘cost of living uplift’ comes into all this now. Nobody seems to want to work for “standard” business profit but instead everyone’s out for making stupid numbers. Sad thing is they’re getting it too!!!

There have been other posts on here for forum members looking for installers happy to take a quote from an F-gas qualified person.

If someone quoted me a grand for a days work to fit this I’d bite their hand off… probably?

There's a lot of work involved with most domestic installations... plumbing, electrics, scaffolding, fitting, testing, warranty.

It was very time consuming when we had ours done.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Nobody seems to want to work for “standard” business profit but instead everyone’s out for making stupid numbers

Supply and demand? Early adopters were buying when sales were limited (and the wait for, e.g. a PowerWall was "short-ish"). When demand is high, and supply of both kits and installers is less, vendors can stick 20% on the sticker price and skip all the punters that don't want to pay that premium ...

After all, it worked for at least one car EV maker

 

[PITA]

Who did you use up your way?

Not too far from me I would imagine?

Seems a decent price for those units which I have been admiring along with Daikin Emura’s. Stylish

Thanks.

Company we used not around anymore. They really struggled through the Pandemic and supply of parts was a real problem

 

[spon88]

All air to air heat pumps can heat as well as cool and pretty much always could. Planning is for multiple outdoor units and their location rather than their capabilities.

The reason I mentioned ducted units in the loft is because I’m pretty sure their output can be split so they cover multiple rooms, avoiding those electric radiators in the bathrooms. Sure you can’t individually control those rooms but for the most part you always want them heated alongside other bedrooms that you use daily. Aside from the air vents in the ceiling they are also invisible and silent as everything is contained in the roof space.

You are stuck with retrofitting wall units on the ground floor but at least upstairs you have the option to hide everything.

One issue we have is that in our kitchen, all the external walls are covered in kitchen units so there is no obvious place to install the wall unit without needing internal trunking. That’s going to need a ‘discussion’

Here are the requirements from the planning portal. The "heating only" requirement was added to stop people lashing up air con units according to the guy I spoke to at our local planning office. Apparently they are now "checking much more closely" than previously. We have the boundary constraint so need it regardless.

Planning Permission: Air source heat pump - Heat pumps - Planning Portal

Details of the planning permission and building regulation regimes for Heat Pumps in England

www.planningportal.co.uk

I'll revisit the roof vents option but still need a solution for towel drying. Cheers

 

[PITA]

Here are the requirements from the planning portal. The "heating only" requirement was added to stop people lashing up air con units according to the guy I spoke to at our local planning office. Apparently they are now "checking much more closely" than previously. We have the boundary constraint so need it regardless.

Planning Permission: Air source heat pump - Heat pumps - Planning Portal

Details of the planning permission and building regulation regimes for Heat Pumps in England

www.planningportal.co.uk

I'll revisit the roof vents option but still need a solution for towel drying. Cheers

That's concerning.

When we installed our Air to Air system the Planning Permission wasn't needed as our setup was 2.5 metres from a boundary wall and ground mounted.

There was never any mention of 'heat only'... when did that change?

 

[qwickshot]

That guidance is pretty vague, it doesn’t restrict the use of air to air, it just means if you have it you can’t turn it on cooling.

Get planning but the reality is that they only have 2 years to take any action if you don’t. Unless someone complains about it, they’ll never know.

 

[WannabeOwner]

still need a solution for towel drying

Unlikely this will work (i.e. I would expect that you'd have it already, if it was doable)

We have towel rails on the hot water circuit. Run the hot tap for bath/shower etc. and the towel rail gets hot. Snag is that they have to be stainless (or something like that) so somewhat more expensive but a lot less choice of design etc. - and some pluming required of course.

We have a "loop" on the hot water circuit. Originally gravity (which was what the towel rails were there to achieve), but that drained the hot water tank in 4 hours flat ... now replaced with an on-demand pump. We have long pipe runs, so at the furthest end takes up to 5 minutes for water to run hot. Now just push a Pump-On switch (got one by the side of the bed for the ultra-lazy!), it runs for, say, 5 mins (or until a thermostat on the Return, on the hot water loop, gets hot) and then hot water is available at the tap without running it to waste for 5 mins. Never felt the need for any additional towel rail heating, so as far as I'm concerned it works OK.

 

[qwickshot]

For towel drying, I’d either just drain the existing towel rads and leave them in place or if you really must have warmed towel rads (first world problems IMO!!), convert them to electric but have strict timers on them.

The former is my plan.

 

[WannabeOwner]

if you really must have warmed towel rads (first world problems IMO!!)

Not sure about that ... unless bathroom is toasty warm then damp towels on the rail are going to be a problem. Heated Towel rail enables lower room temperature - many bathrooms at houses I've visited in winter are "be quick and get out fast" temperature ...

 

[spon88]

That's concerning.

When we installed our Air to Air system the Planning Permission wasn't needed as our setup was 2.5 metres from a boundary wall and ground mounted.

There was never any mention of 'heat only'... when did that change?

Not sure when it changed but the planning guy was pretty adamant. It's not worth a retrospective check-up and potential problems so we'll wait the extra 6 - 8 weeks whilst it's assessed to be safe. Plus we have a boundary contraint to get passed too.

 

[spon88]

That guidance is pretty vague, it doesn’t restrict the use of air to air, it just means if you have it you can’t turn it on cooling.

Get planning but the reality is that they only have 2 years to take any action if you don’t. Unless someone complains about it, they’ll never know.

It's not vague to be fair, it's the law

The planning officer isn't going to simply ignore functionality on the basis that the user won't switch it on. It's a couple of hundred quid to submit planning where we are (and several weeks wait). Worth it for peace of mind.

 

[spon88]

Not sure about that ... unless bathroom is toasty warm then damp towels on the rail are going to be a problem. Heated Towel rail enables lower room temperature - many bathrooms at houses I've visited in winter are "be quick and get out fast" temperature ...

Tend to agree. Ours are all done via the central heating at the moment and it allows us to leave a window cracked (doors shut) for an hour to dry the towels. They go pretty rank quite quickly otherwise. An electrically heated rail is relatively low powered, not too expensive and can also be controlled/timed fairly easily. It's not ideal but should help to minimise use of the gas boiler even further.

 

[qwickshot]

Not sure about that ... unless bathroom is toasty warm then damp towels on the rail are going to be a problem. Heated Towel rail enables lower room temperature - many bathrooms at houses I've visited in winter are "be quick and get out fast" temperature ...

Not sure I agree there. Perhaps this winter if people are feeling the pinch. Those bathrooms may be cold with towel rails because they have a significantly lower output than a proper rad and people have a habbit of under sizing them so they can struggle to heat bathrooms, particularly if they have dodgy insulation like most U.K. housing stock. Likewise if you load up the towel rail with towels, they will insulate it and it will not heat the room very well. The reasons why you shouldn’t dry clothing in radiators also apply to towels on towel rails.

If you used ducted units in the loft, the rooms still be heated as normal by the heat pump. Heated towel rails are very much a new phenomenon, a towel will still try on a non heated rail just fine as they always have. It’s just how you hang it, if fold it up then of course it will not dry.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Those bathrooms may be cold with towel rails because they have a significantly lower output than a proper rad and people have a habbit of under sizing them so they can struggle to heat bathrooms

Agree with that. I was thinking of the situation where the bathroom has heating (i.e. wasn't relying on a heated towel rail for space heating) but also the room wasn't very warm. That's not always the case of course - we have UFH in the bathroom ... its toasty warm. In situation where bathroom is not well heated I think a heated towel rail can help with not letting the towels remain damp.

Whereas our downstairs loo UFH is branched off the hall, which very rarely needs any heat ... but the loo is a tiny room on an outside wall and actually needs more heat as a consequence. But it doesn't have separate circuit / thermostat. If I had to do it again it either needs its own circuit / thermostat, or needs to branch off the most frequently used UFH circuit ... not the least used one!