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Agreed, Convert. This is why I bought into YGE. They are the big of the big and the Chinese government has shown they are not afraid of saving companies, especially "Green" companies since they have such a bad rap due to pollution. However i still am willing to admit i bought into YGE as a speculative play at the time and did not understand their debt issues. When i bought in around $8, that was for sure to high at the time as debt recovery was still unclear. When they hit the $4 range that was a clear signal to buy more and i did as a means to see if i could dig myself out of the hole i jumped into. $10 is around their high end IMO but $4 was cheap so i was willing to double down, allow my break even point to be here in the low $6s and then maybe make a little as it moved up back to $8. Unless i see some progress on their debt i am probably going to have to bail out again around $8, they need to prove they can manage that debt and the next ER will be a big signal. If the stock gets above $8 before the ER i will have to look long and hard at taking profits. If the ER proves the debt is still crushing them, it will crush the stock. I have a year to see if they can or it their government feels like helping them. Government wipes out of debt, they are going to move to the upside fast.

(I made the same dumb speculative play with HSOL, but with alot less money involved. However I am going to lose with HSOL as they were OTM March calls instead of ITM LEAPs like YGE. Only a couple hundred bucks, live and learn)

Interesting to see Solar City pushing YGE panels. Maybe due to YGE willing to sell cheap to sell off capacity? I read this thread alot in the past and i was seeing alot of people saying they were getting Trina Panels. This is why i bought TSL, probably before anyone else here did, and why i am up a stupid amount on them.

I will need to research this push for YGE panels from Solar City. Can you give us some details as to why they wanted you to buy YGE panels over Trina or others? Purely on Cost?
 
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Agreed, Convert. This is why I bought into YGE. They are the big of the big and the Chinese government has shown they are not afraid of saving companies, especially "Green" companies since they have such a bad rap due to pollution. However i still am willing to admit i bought into YGE as a speculative play at the time and did not understand their debt issues. When i bought in around $8, that was for sure to high at the time as debt recovery was still unclear. When they hit the $4 range that was a clear signal to buy more and i did as a means to see if i could dig myself out of the hole i jumped into. $10 is around their high end IMO but $4 was cheap so i was willing to double down, allow my break even point to be here in the low $6s and then maybe make a little as it moved up back to $8. Unless i see some progress on their debt i am probably going to have to bail out again around $8, they need to prove they can manage that debt and the next ER will be a big signal. If the stock gets above $8 before the ER i will have to look long and hard at taking profits. If the ER proves the debt is still crushing them, it will crush the stock. I have a year to see if they can or it their government feels like helping them. Government wipes out of debt, they are going to move to the upside fast.

(I made the same dumb speculative play with HSOL, but with alot less money involved. However I am going to lose with HSOL as they were OTM March calls instead of ITM LEAPs like YGE. Only a couple hundred bucks, live and learn)

Interesting to see Solar City pushing YGE panels. Maybe due to YGE willing to sell cheap to sell off capacity? I read this thread alot in the past and i was seeing alot of people saying they were getting Trina Panels. This is why i bought TSL, probably before anyone else here did, and why i am up a stupid amount on them.

I will need to research this push for YGE panels from Solar City. Can you give us some details as to why they wanted you to buy YGE panels over Trina or others? Purely on Cost?

I was looking for the best no down option and they were pushing YGE. Probably the cheapest for them to buy. I had called the sales guy over to check residential pricing and who their preferred suppliers were. So any predictions on MU earnings next week? The stock has been flat ever since rumor on Hynix factory. I am hoping for a surge post earnings, otherwise my plan is to re-allocate more from MU back to Solar.
 
Ya it must be a money thing which is why they would push them. There are positives and negatives in that. If YGE is the cheapest then they have room for margin growth, but then why are they the cheapest? Still trying to dump the rest of their excess capacity? Why arent they raising prices and get that extra margin they need to pay off debt?

MU is hard to read on ER plays, i did it last quart expecting the Elpida merger to pop the stock, and i got burned. Reading around i find estimates of around $0.40 EPS, which is not actually good to all those people that just bought in after Einhorn did with a quote of $3.50-4 EPS for this year. People see 40cents they might run scared as they dont think they can make the $3.50 for the year Einhorn was shouting out. We know from Tesla you ramp up your EPS as margins improve and prices rise, so people shouldn't be expecting 75 cents EPS this ER but i think some will, get scared and bail out. This one is hard to read as really its the first quarter we really see what kind of cash flow Elpida is going to bring in. I dont mind this lazy stock action $2 off the high as it would give room for a stock pop, but with the huge run up to where we even are today, who is to say really. MU is not a stock i would play ERs on, they are really good at poor investor visibility and not having great CCs. They like to keep all the cards close to their chest.
 
Here is the deal with solar:

Nothing has changed, absolutely nothing. The story is exactly the same as it was one or two months ago. The only difference is that now 2014 demand estimates have gone up to the 45GW - 50GW range, 3 Chinese companies are now profitable vs. 1 last quarter and 0 for the 8 quarters or so prior to Q2, 2013.

The sector is very volatile, especially the Chinese solar stocks. These companies go up a lot and then go down a lot. The reason for this is because these companies have very low market caps and are relatively thinly traded. Therefore the market makers can very easily manipulate these stocks. They make money on the way up and money on the way down, while the pigs get slaughtered. Buy and hold is the only weapon that you have against these guys. There is no way that you will outperform the buy and hold investor in Chinese solars if you try to trade in and out of these positions, when you consider long-term vs. short-term capital gains in the US.

That is the reason I recommend investing in SPWR as the best risk/reward play in the sector. It is a lot less volatile than Chinese solar companies. It has a much higher valuation, but rightfully so. It has a better balance sheet, better technology, years ahead in power plants and residential, etc. SPWR panels were designed for concentrated solar and I hope that they start taking advantage of this very shortly; it will do wonders for the income statement.

As far as Chinese solar companies there are now only four companies worth considering:

CSIQ and JKS. These are the two leaders and best of breed. I would recommend CSIQ as the safer play, because of their geographic diversification. JKS has potential for better returns than CSIQ, but they are mostly reliant on China currently and there is a lot more risk for more potential return. CSIQ is the Chinese/Canadian SPWR, albeit with worse technology, a little less power plant experience, and just starting in residential.

TSL and JASO. TSL is the third best company, but JASO has a lot better valuation and better balance sheet. I recommend researching these companies before investing. I like JASO more than TSL, because JASO has better balance sheet, under-utilization that will end in the next quarter or two at most. Both are cutting costs, but JASO's ASP's are going up vs. flat for TSL. JASO has better quality panels, TSL's are known for defects; JASO also has mono panels that are better for distributed generation. TSL on the other hand has better brand name and recognition, especially overseas. Both are expanding module capacity. Both stocks are very cheap right now IMO.

The rest that you might consider are SOL, YGE, and HSOL. These companies are struggling and are speculative investments. If the solar industry grows very fast then there is a small chance that all of these guys deliver 10-bagger returns in a few years. There is a good chance that some or all of these go bankrupt or wipe out shareholders. Not investment grade, but there is still a small chance for a huge return. I am staying away from now, especially since JASO has similar valuation to some of these guys and is a lot better company.


How to invest in solar:


Buy now when stocks are cheap. I actually think these stocks bottomed out today:

SPWR $28.55
CSIQ $26.94
JKS $26.08
JASO $8.60
TSL $11.57

Speculative plays that might go either way (you can add CSUN, DQ, LDK, and STP? to these):

SOL $2.99
HSOL $2.67
YGE $4.18


If you want to invest in solar then buy these stocks now that they are down 30% or so. Buy more next week if they go even lower, and then more next month if they continue going down. You have to have a long term investment horizon, otherwise don't bother because the market makers are preying on investors that get greedy on the way up. Here is a trend that I spotted on TMC:

I recommended SPWR at $18 in June here on TMC (you can go back to about page 30 or so of this thread to see how I was pimping SPWR) and maybe somebody bought, but most stayed on the sidelines. Then all of a sudden the stock went up 50% in a month and people started buying around $24 - $28. Then post Q2 ER the stock went down to $24 and later to $20, and these people sold for a loss (and the stock exploded to $35 just one or two months later).

Then in July I was pimping CSIQ at $11. People didn't start buying it until it hit $14-$15, before topping around $16 and then quickly falling down to $10.66 or so. A lot of people cashed out at a loss (while I was buying more); and the stock tripled just two months later.

Same thing happened in October, with a lot of people hopping on the solar momentum play close to the highs are now considering cutting there positions at a loss (or already have taken a loss).

There is no reason that you should be losing money in the solar industry. It is by far the best performing industry in 2013, and it will do very well in 2014 also. If you are trying to chase a quick buck in solar stocks then the market makers will eat your lunch.

That is also why I don't recommend buying options in solar. If you want to gamble on these then make sure you are ready to lose all of that money in a matter of days. Buy and hold is the best way to invest in solar.

You really need to have a long term investment horizon when investing in these stocks. The industry is only getting started, and there will be many bumps along the way. If you thought that Tesla has to deal with a lot of FUD and volatility then you haven't seen anything yet until you start investing in solar. It is not an investment for everyone.

Note on SCTY: I don't invest in the company, because it is too volatile and too expensive. It is very similar to TSLA in valuation, but with a lot less clear path than Tesla has to one day justify its valuation. It may turn out to be the best investment in solar, but I doubt it since you could buy every single US listed Chinese solar company with SCTY's market cap. I already have too much TSLA exposure so SCTY is not necessary for me (I have some deep ITM bull call spreads though, but not much at all).

Now is a great time to be buying solar stocks. There might be better times in the upcoming weeks, but you can't get too greedy on the downside either. If you are looking to get in, then don't wait too much longer. The trend will reverse very shortly and you will not see these bargains any time soon. These stocks might go a lot lower, but I don't see it happening. Unfortunately the market makers can manipulate these stocks however they want to, because of the small market caps. I think these are great bargains and the turn around will be swift and violent.

Buy and hold!

...or don't buy at all!

I think it is a good time to quote my post from Dec. 9 (take a close look at the last sentence in the last paragraph).

Just 3 weeks later:

SPWR+13.1%
CSIQ+26.9%
JKS+22.7%
JASO+15.7%
TSL+29.5%


SOL+31.8%
HSOL+22.5%
YGE+50.2%
You could have actually bought those stocks a little cheaper a couple days after my post and gained even bigger returns.


The reason I brought up this post, is because if you look at all of the posts around that time frame pretty much everybody was staying away from solar stocks when it was the exact time that you should have been buying.

Trading these companies is hard to do, but if you really believe in the sector and companies then you should be buying when everyone else is selling. Otherwise do what bonnie does and buy and hold.

Will the rally continue? Probably, but even if it does continue and you buy in now you already missed the easy 20%. Also if you bought back then, then you wouldn't have to worry about whether it is too late to buy now; instead you could be thinking about selling to lock in a quick profit (no, I am not selling here).

Good luck to all. 2014 is the year of solar.
 
I think it is a good time to quote my post from Dec. 9 (take a close look at the last sentence in the last paragraph).

...

Good luck to all. 2014 is the year of solar.

Hear hear...I enjoyed this 9-Dec post so much I actually copied it into my phone's notes to help me keep things in perspective. I had added some CSIQ, TSL and SOL at the time, gut wrenching but feeling good today.

Thanks and good luck to all in 2014.
 
I think it is a good time to quote my post from Dec. 9...

Agreed and appropriate. I had already put in to Solar (SCTY and some others) earlier based on my own research (I am buy and hold like Bonnie via LEAPS and stock). But sleepy's post caused me to add significantly to all positions and establish new ones. Well done and that alone helps create a happier 2014 New Year. Thank sleepy!
 
Heh, one learns something every day. I hadn't even contemplated selling covered calls against the LEAPs that I have. That's of course a way to improve the return even further. Selling 15-20% OTM calls you have a win-win situation as even if you have to close it your LEAP has gone up far more. And it takes up no margin. This makes for far better use of invested money as previously it'd have been stuck in a long term LEAP with no real big use in the interim :) I knew of same date call spreads, but hadn't considered using a LEAP as stock equivalent in selling covered calls. Thanks for the ideas ;) It's especially good after such a nice run up as yesterday was.
 
*sigh*, I so f'ed up my introduction into solar. When I started investing in solar in October, I picked what I know now are option time frames that were way to short.

On the good side, I learned a lot about what "short" and "long" mean in terms of time periods with options and I understand a lot better what I should be doing both in terms of time frame and targets. A big part of my mistake was initially thinking weeklies were "short" and 2-3 months out was "long" in terms of options when I was first starting with them.

On the down side, it's sort of academic as it'll take 300% growth of what's left just to get back to break even. I had read sleepy's post he just referenced, but my investment portfolio is basically a fixed pool of money, so I wasn't able to double down when solar was at its low point since I was already fully invested.

I mostly read these threads now for entertainment value and, hopefully, knowledge for a future (hopefully after kids are out of college) when I can add money to my investments.
 
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Huge volume on YGE again today.
Shocked to see JASO lagging, granted not by a massive amount or anything. I guess they just havent had any of their own news in a while to support the stock?

I am still holding a few SOL Jan14 $5 that expire on the 18th. Holding until them to the bitter end, haha.
 
So disappointed I exited at the bottom. I thought I saw another opp and still had time. Good job to all for those who listened to Sleepy.

I've been doing this "Buy and Hold" thing. It's working out pretty well so far. My only real mistake was dumping a bunch of low cost SPWR shares before TSLA's Q3 announcement feed my lust for Nov 200's. we all know how that worked out.
 
I bought CSIQ and SPWR and pretty much the exact wrong time and I've been in the red the past 6 weeks or so. I have confidence in Solar so I wasn't too worried, but it's always nice to see green. I'm still in the red with SPWR unfortunately, but CISQ and TSLA are covering that for me and then some. I thought for sure we would see some sell off this morning and it did start out that way but turned around pretty quickly. Not complaining. I can't decide if I want to add more TSLA or not however.
 
When this forum is quiet, it is a good time to buy. When there is a lot of action, it means the stocks are performing and everyone comes here to discuss all the money we are making! Not a terrible contrarian indicator... I have been long CSIQ and SPWR and SCTY since June, and grabbed some Jan '15 calls on CSIQ and SPWR back in mid-December. I sure wouldn't mind if 2014 is a repeat of 2013!