Nice car placement!
Looks like you slayed it in PAX. Any reaction from your regular competitors?
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Autocross- SCCA EV-X Class vs. SS
- Thread starter RacerChris
- Start date
Looks like you slayed it in PAX. Any reaction from your regular competitors?
Well the course was very power biased so I felt bad for my momentum car competitors so the PAX being so lopsided in my favor was a bit misleading. That said a lot of them were surprised how well it turned and visibly rotated. Strangely as late to the EV game as I am, I was the first to run one here I suspect this might trigger another not too far off in my area.
SK360
Member
Points event 6 was yesterday. Rain started about 15 runs into the event so I got 4 very slick runs and 2 dry runs once the sun came out. My RT660's are well past their service life but I have 2 events left this year so just going to ride it out and go to RE71RS next spring. Ended 4/93 raw and 7/93 pax.
Hi that's me, I made it here. Car decided to die on me at 3% SOC, very frustrating, but Pete passed me and towed me the mile I had left to the charger. Tesla said it's "within spec" which is bullshit but whatever, I don't think I'm going to get be able to get them to look at it. I went down to lower multiple times on the trip with no issues.
Road trip there and back, the one with the ac charging is back, started ac charging from trailer while I was stranded.
Also, here's power output/range estimate and such from when the failure occurred. Interestingly, the car reported constant power output, which wasn't the case per this data. Speed change is mostly due to some hills where it failed. I floored it here with no change, I suspect some crazy cell imbalance must have caused this and the car threw alarms when whatever cell group got too low, but don't have the data to prove it in any conclusive manner.
Also, here's power output/range estimate and such from when the failure occurred. Interestingly, the car reported constant power output, which wasn't the case per this data. Speed change is mostly due to some hills where it failed. I floored it here with no change, I suspect some crazy cell imbalance must have caused this and the car threw alarms when whatever cell group got too low, but don't have the data to prove it in any conclusive manner.
Damn, that's annoying and alarming. I guess I gotta start leaving a bigger margin.
FYI, after all the national tour events and nationals themselves, I ran the PAX numbers for EV.
In no national event did an EV car beat an SS car. We did tend to beat AS though. We were slower than STU whenever great STU drivers arrived.
In general we ran 0.7% slower than SS and 0.6% faster than AS.
EV is 0.832, SS is 0.833, AS is 0.823, STU is 0.830.
So I did write Rick with these observations and encouraged him to consider them when updating for the 2024 PAX. From what I see, the EVX class should be 0.827 in 2024, assuming SS and AS don't move.
Even with that adjustment, we'd only move our top index result from 86 to 49th at nationals. There's only 45 SCCA classes.
Meanwhile STR is reliably slaying SS RAW yet has a PAX lower than SS, or EV.
In no national event did an EV car beat an SS car. We did tend to beat AS though. We were slower than STU whenever great STU drivers arrived.
In general we ran 0.7% slower than SS and 0.6% faster than AS.
EV is 0.832, SS is 0.833, AS is 0.823, STU is 0.830.
So I did write Rick with these observations and encouraged him to consider them when updating for the 2024 PAX. From what I see, the EVX class should be 0.827 in 2024, assuming SS and AS don't move.
Even with that adjustment, we'd only move our top index result from 86 to 49th at nationals. There's only 45 SCCA classes.
Meanwhile STR is reliably slaying SS RAW yet has a PAX lower than SS, or EV.
You're kidding right? The EVX pax is already pretty darn soft. SS is going to get harder anyway, and AS will if the C7GS goes in there, I think EVX should as well just not to the same extreme to medium changes relative to AM.
It is on tight local courses where the event designers let us have 2-3 long hard acceleration zones after very slow corners or at the start. And even then we seem to lose to STR, as evidenced by the West course at the Nats.
Otherwise, not so much.
We had a .82X PAX a few years back already.
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A little fast into that first corner young buck!
PAX is supposed to be data driven, and it's supposed to be biased towards performance on nationals courses. Despite the SCCA shoving the stock car into SS, all the data shows that the base car is a BS car and would not be competitive against the current BS leader of the Supra. The car is in SS because the BS guys don't want to compete with it and petitioned to have it bumped.
Modding the car to EV-X configuration speeds it up for sure. But again, the car has never once beat an SS car (or even come close) at any national event. So if you really think the PAX is low, the only option there is that only awful drivers have shown up at national events. Which of course is possible.... Except for the fact that the very people called out as being amazing in local events against national champion SS drivers have started to show up at nationals and aren't beating SS in the national events.
Technically, SS is already a hard PAX if you look at the data. Because any time a kart or mod car shows up, they dominate PAX. The idea that every good driver in the world has chosen a kart, FM, or DSP to drive, and everyone in SS, AS, or EV are just bad drivers is statistically silly. But this is why I really focus on the EV-X PAX being relative to the SS and AS PAX, as we really do slot between those cars, and wherever those move in 2024, EV-X should be between them.
This thread includes all the history on PAX for EV-X. Suggest you go back and read around post #750 and get some history here. But the first place you should start is this post and podcast to learn how PAX is set: 2022 Solo Nats [2022 Tire Rack SCCA Solo Nationals]
Now, the unfortunate reality is that there is not one PAX for EV-X that is correct. The car is amazing on amazing on many local courses on tighter sites. There's all sorts of local events where someone shows up in a M3P and hits top PAX and even FTD. But that's true for all sorts of cars- we all joke about a Miata course versus a Corvette course, but that's real, and there are Tesla courses too. It's just that those are not nationals courses.
Look forward to seeing you at some national events in 2024, and it's awesome to see someone else starting to AutoX a M3P!
0.835 in 2022 and it was supposed to be 0.838 in 2023 until I gave Rick some data and he adjusted it.
0.838 would have made the fastest EV car at Nationals this year 140th in PAX, the slowest competitive index class by a huge margin.
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Yes, I hope Tom shows up to the Nats again next year, but in the Tesla this time.
@ABQautoxer and others: Any Tour are you thinking of going to?
I definitely need tons of practice of running on Hoosier-lined track to have a chance next year.
Lindenwood
Active Member
It this point I have been able to run with 4 clubs in the Tesla and two of them were just “local” clubs with their own non-SCCA rules that specifically didn’t include PAX.
Just watching all the effort that goes into getting through the biases to get fair PAX scores seems to validate my feeling that it’s more fun to just run for times and enjoy where you land.
I have FTD’d twice at smallish local events (one of them an SCCA club), but never really cared about PAX score, even when getting RAW’d last time by a couple stripped-out STIs, a modded Nissan GTR, and a hella-modded Vette. Maybe it’s from all my old street racing days where you run when you brung and just made your excuses after the race
.
Still, I can’t say enough how much I appreciate the effort to get EVs fairly represented in sanctioned events, because that’s how we’ll slowly get over the huge hill that is getting people to recognize them as truly-capable motorsports vehicles.
Just watching all the effort that goes into getting through the biases to get fair PAX scores seems to validate my feeling that it’s more fun to just run for times and enjoy where you land.
I have FTD’d twice at smallish local events (one of them an SCCA club), but never really cared about PAX score, even when getting RAW’d last time by a couple stripped-out STIs, a modded Nissan GTR, and a hella-modded Vette. Maybe it’s from all my old street racing days where you run when you brung and just made your excuses after the race
.Still, I can’t say enough how much I appreciate the effort to get EVs fairly represented in sanctioned events, because that’s how we’ll slowly get over the huge hill that is getting people to recognize them as truly-capable motorsports vehicles.
In my region, you get events with 80 people. 20 of those people know what they are doing. 10 of those people are national champions.
None of those 10 people are in the same car class.
This is boring because everyone knows that FTD will be set by the guy in the SSR car, a $200K GT4 with Hoosiers.
So you can decide to run the pro class, which is racing for PAX, because it's the only way to have competition. And this works- nobody dominates those PAX results, and they tend to be close.
The whole point of PAX is to give you some sense of competition when you don't have other cars in your class. That's especially common with the Teslas right now, where it's super unlikely to have a second Tesla to run against. I hate to see new people showing up in Tesla's thinking they are slow just because of PAX when it's the only way to judge themselves at all.
I think that's why I'm so focused on PAX.
(I've had the somewhat opposite experience as well. I had a whole bunch of people saying I was only fast because of the car. Then one day I let a really fast driver co-drive and they were slower than me. Then some more Teslas showed up and I was way faster than them. It's nice to be able to identify where you are relative to other drivers in terms of skill, not the car. This is pretty different than street drags which are mostly about the car.)
SK360
Member
Did I teleport back to 2020?
Hi, welcome to 2023, you’re welcome to join the conversation when you catch up
I saw that and had to do a double take to make sure that I wasn't on the first page or two.Wait, does this mean we can all get our SCCA Nationals entry fees back since we didn't actually get to compete!?
It's OK, I think @Grandpa girl is some sort of ChatGPT bot last updated in 2020 having a stroke with other posts like
I, for one, look forward to autocrossing against my ChatGPT overlords.
It's OK, I think @Grandpa girl is some sort of ChatGPT bot last updated in 2020 having a stroke with other posts like
I, for one, look forward to autocrossing against my ChatGPT overlords.
We should probably be more welcoming to our new friends.
ok, crappy v.5 then.
I sold the M3P but I am still lurking. Congrats to all on EVX at nationals! I signed up a day late and was 80th on the wait list and didn't get in.
I am going to be doing nationals, and as many tour events as I can, next year in my SS built C8 vette. This car is fun? Say hi if you see me.
I am going to be doing nationals, and as many tour events as I can, next year in my SS built C8 vette. This car is fun? Say hi if you see me.
@M3Pdude - Nice! I have a C8 deposit ready for an order, and I'm seriously considering the same switch as you.
You should really run in SSR at nationals. I don't know what is going on there, but that class seriously needs someone to show what a C8 can do with some hoosiers. The fastest SSR C8 on hoosiers ran a full second slower than the fastest C8 on 200TW and 5 seconds slower than the fastest SS cars!?
I'm really hoping someone can show that the C8 is a competitive SS car because it's frustrating if the only car you can win SS in is a $200k+ limited edition Porsche that has a 3 year allocation waiting list.
You should really run in SSR at nationals. I don't know what is going on there, but that class seriously needs someone to show what a C8 can do with some hoosiers. The fastest SSR C8 on hoosiers ran a full second slower than the fastest C8 on 200TW and 5 seconds slower than the fastest SS cars!?
I'm really hoping someone can show that the C8 is a competitive SS car because it's frustrating if the only car you can win SS in is a $200k+ limited edition Porsche that has a 3 year allocation waiting list.
