Autopilot and Supercharging on a 2013 Model S 60

[scgaskill]

If it’s a 2016/2017, it will have the hardware. The question is, is the Autopilot software enabled?

Ask them to send you a pic of the tab called “Autopilot” on the MCU (the big screen in the interior).

If that tab is there, it should be enabled.

Other thing you’ll want to know is if it’s AP1 or AP2 which I believe is addressed up thread.

Good luck.

4 months ago I bought a 2014 MS 60 with AP1 hardware. I wasn't that interested in it so didn't try to use it until now. I do have the Autopilot menu on my MCU1 and there are settings that can be set or turned off, so I assumed it was licensed for use. My MS60 is a base model, "bare bones" with no optional licenses enabled except premium connectivity.

I tried to enable it by putting the car in cruise controlled and then tapping the cruise control arm twice quickly. Nothing happened. Am I doing it right? My guess is it's not licensed, it's not listed under software/additional info, but then why the Autopilot tab with settings that apparently do nothing?

 

[scgaskill]

4 months ago I bought a 2014 MS 60 with AP1 hardware. I wasn't that interested in it so didn't try to use it until now. I do have the Autopilot menu on my MCU1 and there are settings that can be set or turned off, so I assumed it was licensed for use. My MS60 is a base model, "bare bones" with no optional licenses enabled except premium connectivity.

I tried to enable it by putting the car in cruise controlled and then tapping the cruise control arm twice quickly. Nothing happened. Am I doing it right? My guess is it's not licensed, it's not listed under software/additional info, but then why the Autopilot tab with settings that apparently do nothing?

By "tapping" I mean tapping it back toward me.

One of the ongoing issues I'm having is finding year and feature specific documentation. I often hear that there weren't many cars sold like mine w/o features enabled so it's often just assumed that "all cars do that".... Uh, sorry, no. And changes in how features work over time, trying to determine how things work for MY specific year/build.

For example, I was puzzled why my door handles didn't present when the car was locked and I pressed the handle. One version of the user guide said something to the effect "you need to have a key fob, but you don't have to use it, keep it in your pocket and just press the handle to present", then in another version of the user guide it says this only works if you have the Tech Package, which, of course, isn't one of the items listed under software and not a feature my car is licensed for.

If the car is unlocked, then pressing the handle makes it present even w/o the Tech Pkg, so it appeared to be an intermittent problem because the first user guide led me to believe that ALL cars could present when the handle is pushed when locked. The second version made it sound like you only needed the Tech Package if you want the car to present the handles simply by recognizing the key fob w/o even touching the handle.

This is just one example. These early models features seemed to have been very ala carte. It may be true that MOST buyers chose to purchase many of the mist common features, but not all buyers did! Being a new owner, new to Tesla's and the various features that they have, it's an ongoing game of "20 questions" trying to sort it all out. Except that, like I said earlier, my car doesn't seem to have any features licensed - no SuC, no Navigation, no Tech Pkg, no AP (probably), etc etc etc so my default assumption now is, for any given optional feature, it likely isn't licensed, and Tesla will want $2-3K to license each feature if I want it!

Don't get me wrong, I love the car, it is in great shape with only 42K miles, but I wish I knew what I know now before I bought the car, I would have probably passed on this one. I didn't specifically seek out a MS, I was looking for a used ICE car when I found this, and really loved the car, but I didn't realize I needed to spend so much effort learning about each and every feature, and how it was sold and licensed, and the costs to enable them now. So I have a beautiful car that I love to drive that isn't really the cool high tech car people think it is.

 

[whitex]

4 months ago I bought a 2014 MS 60 with AP1 hardware. I wasn't that interested in it so didn't try to use it until now. I do have the Autopilot menu on my MCU1 and there are settings that can be set or turned off, so I assumed it was licensed for use. My MS60 is a base model, "bare bones" with no optional licenses enabled except premium connectivity.

I tried to enable it by putting the car in cruise controlled and then tapping the cruise control arm twice quickly. Nothing happened. Am I doing it right? My guess is it's not licensed, it's not listed under software/additional info, but then why the Autopilot tab with settings that apparently do nothing?

If you can enable it in settings it should be licensed, unless either:

1. there was an MCU replacement in the car's history and somehow there is a mismatch between the car and the MCU
2. Tesla abandoned supporting such old base cars, so your configuration is not in the current software database, leading to this confusion

Typically if not licensed, when you use the AP stalk to engage it, it would tell you it's disabled. Are you able to engage regular cruise control?

However, if your car does not have a Tech package, you are missing the following (this image is from early 2015 order page, before AP became its own package in April 2015)

Hope the above list helps you.

If the car is unlocked, then pressing the handle makes it present even w/o the Tech Pkg, so it appeared to be an intermittent problem because the first user guide led me to believe that ALL cars could present when the handle is pushed when locked. The second version made it sound like you only needed the Tech Package if you want the car to present the handles simply by recognizing the key fob w/o even touching the handle.

Sounds consistent with no automatic keyless entry. The handles need to present when unlocked or else you couldn't grab them. What you're missing is the fob detection near the car. When unlocked, the handles will present even if you don't have a fob on you. I am not sure if this is just a software option, as I know there are fox proximity sensors all around the car (e.g. at each end of the dashboard, under the little plastic end panel that touches the door) which might be missing from your car. Similar for other features in the tech package, you might be missing the hardware.

This is just one example. These early models features seemed to have been very ala carte. It may be true that MOST buyers chose to purchase many of the mist common features, but not all buyers did! Being a new owner, new to Tesla's and the various features that they have, it's an ongoing game of "20 questions" trying to sort it all out. Except that, like I said earlier, my car doesn't seem to have any features licensed - no SuC, no Navigation, no Tech Pkg, no AP (probably), etc etc etc so my default assumption now is, for any given optional feature, it likely isn't licensed, and Tesla will want $2-3K to license each feature if I want it!

Yea, even supercharging enablement (which came with free lifetime supercharging at the time) was optional on the S60, which was meant to have the lowest possible price (back then this was the lowest priced EV with almost 200 mile range).

You might be able to get DC charging enabled by Tesla today for a small fee or maybe even free, which would enable you to supercharge (but not for free). It might be worth a try to inquire about it. At one point there was a cheaper post sale option to just enable DC charging, but no free supercharging. I also know that enabling the supercharging used to be possible remotely, as I had a 2013 MS without supercharging, on which I paid to enable it, and Tesla did it remotely.

 

[scgaskill]

If you can enable it in settings it should be licensed, unless either:

1. there was an MCU replacement in the car's history and somehow there is a mismatch between the car and the MCU
2. Tesla abandoned supporting such old base cars, so your configuration is not in the current software database, leading to this confusion

Typically if not licensed, when you use the AP stalk to engage it, it would tell you it's disabled. Are you able to engage regular cruise control?

However, if your car does not have a Tech package, you are missing the following (this image is from early 2015 order page, before AP became its own package in April 2015)
View attachment 1012943
Hope the above list helps you.

Sounds consistent with no automatic keyless entry. The handles need to present when unlocked or else you couldn't grab them. What you're missing is the fob detection near the car. When unlocked, the handles will present even if you don't have a fob on you. I am not sure if this is just a software option, as I know there are fox proximity sensors all around the car (e.g. at each end of the dashboard, under the little plastic end panel that touches the door) which might be missing from your car. Similar for other features in the tech package, you might be missing the hardware.


Yea, even supercharging enablement (which came with free lifetime supercharging at the time) was optional on the S60, which was meant to have the lowest possible price (back then this was the lowest priced EV with almost 200 mile range).
View attachment 1012944
You might be able to get DC charging enabled by Tesla today for a small fee or maybe even free, which would enable you to supercharge (but not for free). It might be worth a try to inquire about it. At one point there was a cheaper post sale option to just enable DC charging, but no free supercharging. I also know that enabling the supercharging used to be possible remotely, as I had a 2013 MS without supercharging, on which I paid to enable it, and Tesla did it remotely.

Whitex, thanks so much, this is very informative. Where did you get the pictures of the Tech Package and SuperCharger feature descriptions? The user manual mentions the Tech Package for the door handle presenting issue, and the SC has confirmed my car doesn't have it, but I didn't realize it also included the AP TACC and lane keeping and auto steering features which I've been trying to test the last couple of days.

There are multiple versions of the user manual and the first one I downloaded was poorly written making me believe that the door handles should present simply by pressing them, even with the car locked. Now I know that this only works when the car is unlocked and I need to use the key fob to unlock the car.

As for the SuperCharging, I've been going back and forth with the SC about it. If you're interested you can search my detailed descriptions of my nightmare trying to get CCS DC Fast charging, and my limited need for SuC. Long story short, I don't make long driving trips ever. And by long I mean greater than about 150 miles! I can count on one hand the number of times I've done this in the past 35 years. That doesn't include work related trips where I rent a car so I'm not putting wear and tear on my personal vehicle.

What I need SuC for is local "topping off" my battery in the local suburban Chicago area if I'm out and about and have to make an extra side trip and exceed my range and end up, say 30-50 miles from home at the end of the day with a battery at 10% charge, requiring me to sit at a God awful destination charger for 1-2 hours charging at 5-6 kWh just so I can go home, hours late.

Id like the ability in cases like this to be able to stop at a SuC for say 15 minutes to get the battery up to 30-40%, whatever is required to get the car back home to my L2 home charger. In these cases I don't need to charge to 80-90%, just enough charge, QUICKLY, to get back home!

Initially, I didn't think I needed SuC at all, and when the SC verbally told me it was $2500 to license it, I held off until I had a few months of experience with the car and better understood it's range. Im in sales but post-COVID, I work from home and only occasionally get out to meet partners and customers, and they are usually within my limited range. The 60kW battery pack range is rated at 208 miles but in reality is more like 150 actual miles. And that would be for 100% charge.

Typically I charge to 90-94% having read that it's not good for these old batteries to regularly charge to 100%. And of course I don't ring it down to 0% for obvious reasons, I always try to go no lower than 8-10%. So this further reduces my actual effective range.

And the very cold weather doesn't help either, though I haven't driven it enough to quantify the reduction. We had a snow storm recently and I parked the MS60 and drove my ICE until the majority of the snow melted and the temps warmed up into the 30s.

I live in the far western suburbs of Chicago, near Aurora IL. With my reduced range, even the northern suburbs are pushing it if I want to get home quickly, this is where SuC would be beneficial. I could leave the house with a SOC of 92% and drive to the far northern burbs and arrive with 25-30% charge.

When I'm ready to head home a 20-25 min SuC "top off" would ensure I made it all the way home with no further stops to charge. Arriving home with say 15% charge I have overnight for my L2 home charger to charge me back up to 92%. But right now, tha trip would require a 2-3 hour charging stop at a dest charger - unacceptable, so the MS60 stays home and I drive the ICE car.

I know I'll never SuC at 150-250 kWh rates, the 60kW pack will only handle about 75 kWh rates, but that's about 10x the rate of most L2 destination chargers and I would be absolutely ecstatic with that!

Not wanting to spend $2500 for this "limited use" SuC I was very happy to see the CCS charging could be enabled for my car for $450 which includes a CCS to NACS adapter and a retrofit hardware kit. With that I could use non-Tesla L3 DC Fast chargers like the EVgo network. See my other posts about how the SC didn't confirm if it would work with my car, it didn't. Not clear though if the mobile tech configured it correctly.

When it didn't work, the SC said that CCS charging requires Tesla SuC charging first be licensed, and they said, oops, that's not $2.5K it's really $12.5K, but that includes lifetime free SuC. Great, but I am still not convinced I need FUSC for my limited use case for the reasons I explained.

I guess I'm an unusual Tesla owner, I'm not obsessed with FUSC like so many others seem to be. I'm perfectly willing to pay for usage, I just need a REASONABLE cost to enable the "right to use" license. 12 grand is not reasonable! And no, that didn't include a battery pack upgrade to an 85 kW pack, strictly SW license. At this point I will gladly pay $2500, but even that seems excessive for my meager needs.

Yeah, I know, Tesla just didn't sell many of these "budget" model MS60s and I'm in a very small minority, but I feel like I'm being punished for buying my first Tesla without realizing all this before buying the car, and am being penalized because the initial owner didn't buy any optional licenses, and now, ala carte, Tesla still wants to charge thousands to license each of these features for a 10 year old car.

I can live w/o the Tech Package and AP. I didn't buy the car for any self driving features. But being able to make a relatively short range round trip in the immediate greater suburban Chicago area w/o spending hours charging SLOOOOWLY just to get home doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

[scgaskill]

If you can enable it in settings it should be licensed, unless either:

1. there was an MCU replacement in the car's history and somehow there is a mismatch between the car and the MCU
2. Tesla abandoned supporting such old base cars, so your configuration is not in the current software database, leading to this confusion

Typically if not licensed, when you use the AP stalk to engage it, it would tell you it's disabled. Are you able to engage regular cruise control?

However, if your car does not have a Tech package, you are missing the following (this image is from early 2015 order page, before AP became its own package in April 2015)
View attachment 1012943
Hope the above list helps you.

Sounds consistent with no automatic keyless entry. The handles need to present when unlocked or else you couldn't grab them. What you're missing is the fob detection near the car. When unlocked, the handles will present even if you don't have a fob on you. I am not sure if this is just a software option, as I know there are fox proximity sensors all around the car (e.g. at each end of the dashboard, under the little plastic end panel that touches the door) which might be missing from your car. Similar for other features in the tech package, you might be missing the hardware.


Yea, even supercharging enablement (which came with free lifetime supercharging at the time) was optional on the S60, which was meant to have the lowest possible price (back then this was the lowest priced EV with almost 200 mile range).
View attachment 1012944
You might be able to get DC charging enabled by Tesla today for a small fee or maybe even free, which would enable you to supercharge (but not for free). It might be worth a try to inquire about it. At one point there was a cheaper post sale option to just enable DC charging, but no free supercharging. I also know that enabling the supercharging used to be possible remotely, as I had a 2013 MS without supercharging, on which I paid to enable it, and Tesla did it remotely.

Getting back to the AP/TACC/AS, it's clear now that my car isn't licensed for it. Not surprising considering I have no other optional licenses. The AP menu led me to believe that maybe some of these features might be included, but another member pointed out that the options on that menu I see aren't really AP features, see the attached pictures. I was mainly curious about the auto steering, I'm ok with standard Cruise Control.

 

[scgaskill]

If you can enable it in settings it should be licensed, unless either:

1. there was an MCU replacement in the car's history and somehow there is a mismatch between the car and the MCU
2. Tesla abandoned supporting such old base cars, so your configuration is not in the current software database, leading to this confusion

Typically if not licensed, when you use the AP stalk to engage it, it would tell you it's disabled. Are you able to engage regular cruise control?

However, if your car does not have a Tech package, you are missing the following (this image is from early 2015 order page, before AP became its own package in April 2015)
View attachment 1012943
Hope the above list helps you.

Sounds consistent with no automatic keyless entry. The handles need to present when unlocked or else you couldn't grab them. What you're missing is the fob detection near the car. When unlocked, the handles will present even if you don't have a fob on you. I am not sure if this is just a software option, as I know there are fox proximity sensors all around the car (e.g. at each end of the dashboard, under the little plastic end panel that touches the door) which might be missing from your car. Similar for other features in the tech package, you might be missing the hardware.


Yea, even supercharging enablement (which came with free lifetime supercharging at the time) was optional on the S60, which was meant to have the lowest possible price (back then this was the lowest priced EV with almost 200 mile range).
View attachment 1012944
You might be able to get DC charging enabled by Tesla today for a small fee or maybe even free, which would enable you to supercharge (but not for free). It might be worth a try to inquire about it. At one point there was a cheaper post sale option to just enable DC charging, but no free supercharging. I also know that enabling the supercharging used to be possible remotely, as I had a 2013 MS without supercharging, on which I paid to enable it, and Tesla did it remotely.

Last post for today!

Go Hawks! I see you're in Seattle, I'm originally from Vancouver WA and am a lifelong Seahawks fan!

Last week I went to a second SC to get a "second opinion" on the cost to license SuC and CCS, and to confirm if CCS will work w/o SuC being licensed, giving me a lower cost option. At this point I don't have much/ any faith in what my local SC tells me. In the few short months I've owned the car I've gotten too many conflicting answers.

Another member had mentioned a setting in the cars firmware "Other DC Fast Charging" or something to that effect, that was originally for CHAdeMO but now may also be used for CCS (TBD). Maybe the mobile tech forgot to enable it, and that's the missing piece?

Addl SW Features showed CCS was enabled but I have no way of knowing if this "Other DC Fast Charging" setting was enabled, or should be enabled. The mobile tech said I was the first person in the area to purchase this kit, so maybe the procedure isn't well documented and that is all that I needed.

The retrofit kit has been de-installed and refunded, but if it will work w/o the $2500 SuC license, I'll buy it again and use non-Tesla L3 DC Fast chargers for my limited usage. I'm hoping the second SC has better news for me about this. The ccs kit was $485 after taxes, which is much more acceptable, and CCS charging at 50-75 kWh charging rates would fit my needs perfectly.

 

[whitex]

Where did you get the pictures of the Tech Package and SuperCharger feature descriptions?

Screen capture of the Design Studio from when I was ordering one of my Teslas. Back then Tesla used to change things often so early adopters learned to always screencap what you're buying. I was much more up to date on Tesla offerings back then, but after a decade of driving 4 Model S'es I moved on to non-Tesla EV's but still support friends and family with M3/MY, which in my opinion are currently the most practical, utilitarian, best bang for your dollar EVs in North America.

As for the SuperCharging, I've been going back and forth with the SC about it. If you're interested you can search my detailed descriptions of my nightmare trying to get CCS DC Fast charging, and my limited need for SuC.

Fyi, Supercharger enablement is a software feature on your car. Supercharging would also enable DC charging like ChaDeMo but not CCS. CCS adapter enablement is separate and requires replacement of an onboard component.

Tesla used to sell the Supercharger Enablement together with Free Unlimited Supercharging for $2,500 post delivery, but would enable DC charging only, so practically just ChaDeMo for $1,000 IIRC.

When it didn't work, the SC said that CCS charging requires Tesla SuC charging first be licensed, and they said, oops, that's not $2.5K it's really $12.5K, but that includes lifetime free SuC.

It seems they are selling you on the package which originally was $2,500 but asking $12,500 for it today. Funny how they don't value FuSC at $12,500 or anywhere near when trading in a car. I suspect they quoted $12,500 because they really did not want you to do it (since 2013 S60 with FUSC can be bought for $20K or less nowadays if you look for a private seller who has one, FUSC is transferrable for those cars). IMO it's not worth $12,500, but you can do the math for your usecase. Ironically for me, I paid $2,000 for supercharger enablement on my S60, but never used it even once as there wasn't many superchargers available back then (the closest to my house was 100 miles away) - I did use ChaDeMo on a handful of occasions though. Not only that, when I sold the S60, the new owner tried to supercharge and it turned out Tesla did not enable it properly so it didn't work, however they took it to the SC and since they had my receipt showing I paid for it after delivery, SC solved the issue.

One thing you could try to see if they would enable is the old DC charging only (no Supercharging) which used to be $1,000 IIRC, if that would enable the $485 CCS adapter kit (since the $1,000 option used to enable ChaDeMo adapter without enabling supercharging).

Also, I think it might be worth for you to have a chat with one of the aftermarket EV repair places like Electrified Garage or Gruber Motors. Maybe they could enable CCS adapter on your car for less. Maybe even paid supercharging, who knows.

 

[whitex]

The AP menu led me to believe that maybe some of these features might be included, but another member pointed out that the options on that menu I see aren't really AP features, see the attached pictures.

Ah, that's the confusion. I assumed you meant were able to enable auto-steer in those settings. Based on the pictures, you definitely don't have autopilot enabled.

 

[scgaskill]

Screen capture of the Design Studio from when I was ordering one of my Teslas. Back then Tesla used to change things often so early adopters learned to always screencap what you're buying. I was much more up to date on Tesla offerings back then, but after a decade of driving 4 Model S'es I moved on to non-Tesla EV's but still support friends and family with M3/MY, which in my opinion are currently the most practical, utilitarian, best bang for your dollar EVs in North America.


Fyi, Supercharger enablement is a software feature on your car. Supercharging would also enable DC charging like ChaDeMo but not CCS. CCS adapter enablement is separate and requires replacement of an onboard component.

Tesla used to sell the Supercharger Enablement together with Free Unlimited Supercharging for $2,500 post delivery, but would enable DC charging only, so practically just ChaDeMo for $1,000 IIRC.


It seems they are selling you on the package which originally was $2,500 but asking $12,500 for it today. Funny how they don't value FuSC at $12,500 or anywhere near when trading in a car. I suspect they quoted $12,500 because they really did not want you to do it. IMO it's not worth $12,500, but you can do the math for your usecase. Ironically for me, I paid $2,000 for supercharger enablement on my S60, but never used it even once as there wasn't many superchargers available back then (the closest to my house was 100 miles away) - I did use ChaDeMo on a handful of occasions though. Not only that, when I sold the S60, the new owner tried to supercharge and it turned out Tesla did not enable it properly so it didn't work, however they took it to the SC and since they had my receipt showing I paid for it after delivery, SC solved the issue.

One thing you could try to see if they would enable is the old DC charging only (no Supercharging) which used to be $1,000 IIRC, if that would enable the $485 CCS adapter kit (since the $1,000 option used to enable ChaDeMo adapter without enabling supercharging).

Also, I think it might be worth for you to have a chat with one of the aftermarket EV repair places like Electrified Garage or Gruber Motors. Maybe they could enable CCS adapter on your car for less. Maybe even paid supercharging, who knows.

Thanks. Yeah, I find it really odd that, just as they want to get rid of FUSC cars, that's the only option they're giving me, even though I've explained to them that what I REALLY need is a paid, limited use, emergency only, type of SuC capability. Talk about not listening to the customer!

I've asked about CCS and even CHAdeMO as alternate options, but the guys at the SC give me dead stares like they don't know what I'm talking about! That's why last Friday I went to a different SC for a sanity check.

CCS seems to be the best option, as it's reasonably priced with or without $1K for DC Fast Charging license, and the rest of the EV market uses it so it's prevalent. I just wish someone could confirm for me that it does not require Tesla SuC license, and if it uses the DC Fast Charging firmware setting.

CHAdeMO is being phased out and much less prevalent. If you look at EVgo L3 DC fast chargers they'll have 5-6 CCS but only 1-2 CHAdeMO, and anybody's guess how many are working at any given site. And the adapter is huge and used, about $500 in addition to the licensing.

 

[scgaskill]

Screen capture of the Design Studio from when I was ordering one of my Teslas. Back then Tesla used to change things often so early adopters learned to always screencap what you're buying. I was much more up to date on Tesla offerings back then, but after a decade of driving 4 Model S'es I moved on to non-Tesla EV's but still support friends and family with M3/MY, which in my opinion are currently the most practical, utilitarian, best bang for your dollar EVs in North America.


Fyi, Supercharger enablement is a software feature on your car. Supercharging would also enable DC charging like ChaDeMo but not CCS. CCS adapter enablement is separate and requires replacement of an onboard component.

Tesla used to sell the Supercharger Enablement together with Free Unlimited Supercharging for $2,500 post delivery, but would enable DC charging only, so practically just ChaDeMo for $1,000 IIRC.


It seems they are selling you on the package which originally was $2,500 but asking $12,500 for it today. Funny how they don't value FuSC at $12,500 or anywhere near when trading in a car. I suspect they quoted $12,500 because they really did not want you to do it (since 2013 S60 with FUSC can be bought for $20K or less nowadays if you look for a private seller who has one, FUSC is transferrable for those cars). IMO it's not worth $12,500, but you can do the math for your usecase. Ironically for me, I paid $2,000 for supercharger enablement on my S60, but never used it even once as there wasn't many superchargers available back then (the closest to my house was 100 miles away) - I did use ChaDeMo on a handful of occasions though. Not only that, when I sold the S60, the new owner tried to supercharge and it turned out Tesla did not enable it properly so it didn't work, however they took it to the SC and since they had my receipt showing I paid for it after delivery, SC solved the issue.

One thing you could try to see if they would enable is the old DC charging only (no Supercharging) which used to be $1,000 IIRC, if that would enable the $485 CCS adapter kit (since the $1,000 option used to enable ChaDeMo adapter without enabling supercharging).

Also, I think it might be worth for you to have a chat with one of the aftermarket EV repair places like Electrified Garage or Gruber Motors. Maybe they could enable CCS adapter on your car for less. Maybe even paid supercharging, who knows.

I hadn't thought about an aftermarket option. Not sure what's available in the Chicago area, but I'll definitely research it. Unless they could do it remotely?

 

[whitex]

Thanks. Yeah, I find it really odd that, just as they want to get rid of FUSC cars, that's the only option they're giving me, even though I've explained to them that what I REALLY need is a paid, limited use, emergency only, type of SuC capability. Talk about not listening to the customer!

I've asked about CCS and even CHAdeMO as alternate options, but the guys at the SC give me dead stares like they don't know what I'm talking about! That's why last Friday I went to a different SC for a sanity check.

CCS seems to be the best option, as it's reasonably priced with or without $1K for DC Fast Charging license, and the rest of the EV market uses it so it's prevalent. I just wish someone could confirm for me that it does not require Tesla SuC license, and if it uses the DC Fast Charging firmware setting.

CHAdeMO is being phased out and much less prevalent. If you look at EVgo L3 DC fast chargers they'll have 5-6 CCS but only 1-2 CHAdeMO, and anybody's guess how many are working at any given site. And the adapter is huge and used, about $500 in addition to the licensing.

I mentioned ChaDeMo as it was the only non Supercharger DC method of charging, and Tesla had the "$1,000 DC charging but not Supercharger" option for S60's, so I thought perhaps that would also enable CCS (after swapping out the onboard ECU of course, we know pre-late 2017 ECUs and some pandemic produced cars don't speak CCS).

 

[scgaskill]

I mentioned ChaDeMo as it was the only non Supercharger DC method of charging, and Tesla had the "$1,000 DC charging but not Supercharger" option for S60's, so I thought perhaps that would also enable CCS (after swapping out the onboard ECU of course, we know pre-late 2017 ECUs and some pandemic produced cars don't speak CCS).

Yeah, others have theorized that as well, the question is does the CCS option require it and if it does is it included in the $450 retrofit kit and the mobile tech just missed it, or it needs to be licensed separately, and if so, what is that cost, is it still $1000? Rhetorical questions here but the SC should be able to answer them. So far I have asked but not gotten clear answers. My SC said NACS, CCS, CHAdeMO all require the $12K SuC license first, which just doesn't "pass the smell test" in my mind! Thus the 2nd SC for a 2nd opinion with hopefully better answers.

 

[scgaskill]

Yeah, others have theorized that as well, the question is does the CCS option require it and if it does is it included in the $450 retrofit kit and the mobile tech just missed it, or it needs to be licensed separately, and if so, what is that cost, is it still $1000? Rhetorical questions here but the SC should be able to answer them. So far I have asked but not gotten clear answers. My SC said NACS, CCS, CHAdeMO all require the $12K SuC license first, which just doesn't "pass the smell test" in my mind! Thus the 2nd SC for a 2nd opinion with hopefully better answers.

I'm not gambling $1K for a CHAdeMO license, likely non-refundable, in the hopes that it will also enable CCS when the $450 CCS retrofit kit is purchased a second time. The SC needs to confirm this will work before I break out the credit card on a $1500+ gamble!

 

[whitex]

I'm not gambling $1K for a CHAdeMO license, likely non-refundable, in the hopes that it will also enable CCS when the $450 CCS retrofit kit is purchased a second time. The SC needs to confirm this will work before I break out the credit card on a $1500+ gamble!

Maybe be worth a conversation with a third party garage to get an idea what they can do for you, and they will probably know what SC could do for you too. Being better informed cannot hurt.

 

[scgaskill]

I'm not gambling $1K for a CHAdeMO license, likely non-refundable, in the hopes that it will also enable CCS when the $450 CCS retrofit kit is purchased a second time. The SC needs to confirm this will work before I break out the credit card on a $1500+ gamble!

Update: having not heard back from the second SC for over a week (sigh), and being in the area today, I stopped in and yet again explained everything to the Service Manager there. He did some digging and said, just like my primary SC SM, that SuC is now $12K and is a prerequisite to the other DC fast charging options, CCS and CHAdeMO. There is no other option, 12 grand or nothing, no in between.

Others have theorized that Tesla doesn't want these slow charging older models tying up SuC's, but I always hear what a small number of folks like me there are that have these cars, so why the concern that the few of us out there will somehow show up en-mass and tie things up? Doesn't add up.

I also see and hear that Tesla wants to get rid of FUSC licensed cars, incenting people to trade them in, etc. so it's odd that that is the only option they will give me, unless it's intentionally prohibitively high to dissuade me from actually doing it. If that's the case, it's working. I did get a new bumper sticker for the car......

Thanks Elon, F'ing A-hole.

 

[scgaskill]

Maybe be worth a conversation with a third party garage to get an idea what they can do for you, and they will probably know what SC could do for you too. Being better informed cannot hurt.

Yeah but I have to think that legally, a 3rd party service provider can't touch licensing options and wouldn't want the liability. Tesla could sue them for loss of revenue I would think, depriving them from selling the "right to use" license and charging and profiting off software that they do not own are are not licensed to sell. I'm sure Tesla has an army of lawyers that would be all over that shop.

It's one thing to repair hardware, that I own, or swap a battery pack, but I have to think that somewhere in carefully crafted legalese, is a statement saying us owners only have the right to use the software that has been purchased for the vehicle, we don't have the right to enable additional features if we can find a way to hack it!

I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[whitex]

Yeah but I have to think that legally, a 3rd party service provider can't touch licensing options and wouldn't want the liability. Tesla could sue them for loss of revenue I would think, depriving them from selling the "right to use" license and charging and profiting off software that they do not own are are not licensed to sell. I'm sure Tesla has an army of lawyers that would be all over that shop.

It's one thing to repair hardware, that I own, or swap a battery pack, but I have to think that somewhere in carefully crafted legalese, is a statement saying us owners only have the right to use the software that has been purchased for the vehicle, we don't have the right to enable additional features if we can find a way to hack it!

I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

Hence my suggestion of a conversation first. There are plenty of grey areas, for example if they took a supercharging licensed charger from a crashed car and put it in your car, valid use or not? You could say "by using a part from a different car you rob Tesla of revenue opportunity" but that would be true for any part take off another car. For example, using a door handle from another Model S, technically robs Tesla of the opportunity to charge you $800 for a new one.

 

[scgaskill]

Hence my suggestion of a conversation first. There are plenty of grey areas, for example if they took a supercharging licensed charger from a crashed car and put it in your car, valid use or not? You could say "by using a part from a different car you rob Tesla of revenue opportunity" but that would be true for any part take off another car. For example, using a door handle from another Model S, technically robs Tesla of the opportunity to charge you $800 for a new one.

I'll try but I'm not holding my breath. The car (VIN) is licensed for SuC not the charger, so moving a charger from car to car wouldn't bring with it the license. And as we both know, the onboard charger is for AC charging, not DC fast charging! . (I may be a newbie, but I'm learning!)

Software is different than hardware. Tesla, or any car manufacturer for that matter, doesn't retain ownership of the parts when they sell a car, but the software? You don't get to own software really, you get to own the right to use it but not copy it and give it to others. Many software stipulate in can only be used on one computer at a time.

You can't take your version of Windows, change the source code slightly, and sell it as your own OS for example. Or take a student version you bought and hack the activation code to turn it into a full blown version (I'm a Mac guy, haven't used Windows for years, but you get my point hopefully).

A 3rd party shop would have to have a "right to use" SuC license from say a salvage car they own in order to sell it to me and add it to my car, if my theory is correct, since they would own that SuC license, and it would have to be removed from the salvage car. Otherwise they would be enabling a feature that only Tesla has the right to sell me. Just my theory mind you, I'm not a lawyer. I'll make some calls, but i suspect they won't touch it.

I think I've beat this horse to death now and have to resign myself that my baby will never have SuC capability and I'll just have to leave her at home and drive my ICE on days I need longer range. Live and learn! I'm getting close to retirement, and when I do retire my range needs will be even less than today, so in the long run it will be fine.

Thanks for your help!

 

[scgaskill]

I'll try but I'm not holding my breath. The car (VIN) is licensed for SuC not the charger, so moving a charger from car to car wouldn't bring with it the license. And as we both know, the onboard charger is for AC charging, not DC fast charging! . (I may be a newbie, but I'm learning!)

Software is different than hardware. Tesla, or any car manufacturer for that matter, doesn't retain ownership of the parts when they sell a car, but the software? You don't get to own software really, you get to own the right to use it but not copy it and give it to others. Many software stipulate in can only be used on one computer at a time.

You can't take your version of Windows, change the source code slightly, and sell it as your own OS for example. Or take a student version you bought and hack the activation code to turn it into a full blown version (I'm a Mac guy, haven't used Windows for years, but you get my point hopefully).

A 3rd party shop would have to have a "right to use" SuC license from say a salvage car they own in order to sell it to me and add it to my car, if my theory is correct, since they would own that SuC license, and it would have to be removed from the salvage car. Otherwise they would be enabling a feature that only Tesla has the right to sell me. Just my theory mind you, I'm not a lawyer. I'll make some calls, but i suspect they won't touch it.

I think I've beat this horse to death now and have to resign myself that my baby will never have SuC capability and I'll just have to leave her at home and drive my ICE on days I need longer range. Live and learn! I'm getting close to retirement, and when I do retire my range needs will be even less than today, so in the long run it will be fine.

Thanks for your help!

Having said all that, could I find a tech that has the software tools ("Toolbox", is that what they use?) To enable SuC for me for say $1K? Maybe. But then later, when I take the car to the SC if by chance they notice it's enabled, and I'm not entitled, the SC could disable it and I would be out $1K with no legal recourse, not having a receipt showing I ever legally paid for it. All theoretical mind you.

 

[whitex]

And as we both know, the onboard charger is for AC charging, not DC fast charging! . (I may be a newbie, but I'm learning!)

True, DC charger is the big box outside of the car. That said, there is a "DC charge port controller ECU", which is what you change out to get it to make it work with CCS adapter.

Software is different than hardware. Tesla, or any car manufacturer for that matter, doesn't retain ownership of the parts when they sell a car, but the software? You don't get to own software really, you get to own the right to use it but not copy it and give it to others. Many software stipulate in can only be used on one computer at a time.

You can't take your version of Windows, change the source code slightly, and sell it as your own OS for example. Or take a student version you bought and hack the activation code to turn it into a full blown version (I'm a Mac guy, haven't used Windows for years, but you get my point hopefully).

But you can take the hard drive out of one PC and put it in another, therefore transferring the Windows license. All good, as long as you don't make a copy and try to run both. Microsoft will re-activate your windows on the new PC if you tell them you changed out the motherboard (which technically you did).

A 3rd party shop would have to have a "right to use" SuC license from say a salvage car they own in order to sell it to me and add it to my car, if my theory is correct, since they would own that SuC license, and it would have to be removed from the salvage car. Otherwise they would be enabling a feature that only Tesla has the right to sell me. Just my theory mind you, I'm not a lawyer. I'll make some calls, but i suspect they won't touch it.

I'd make a call, see what's possible. I know those shops do allow swapping a larger battery to your car, which technically is transferring the battery license too as they have to reprogram your car to show as S85 or S90 for example, which does for example improve your power/acceleration .

I think I've beat this horse to death now and have to resign myself that my baby will never have SuC capability and I'll just have to leave her at home and drive my ICE on days I need longer range. Live and learn! I'm getting close to retirement, and when I do retire my range needs will be even less than today, so in the long run it will be fine.

Yea, there was one other thought that occurred to me. SC staff today has zero knowledge of old Teslas, and Model S without supercharging are so rate you were probably the very first one they ever saw. Perhaps when they quoted you $12,500 for the Supercharging, they looked up the incorrect update. Tesla very briefly produced S40's, which actually had 60KWh batteries onboard but were actually missing the hardware needed for supercharging. They did sell this upgrade but it costed (IIRC) $8,000 for 60KWh unlock or $10,000 if you wanted unlock with supercharging hardware and enablement capacity. I met a guy once who bought an S40 and paid the full price just because he wanted supercharging. There would not be a 2014 S40, only 2012 and maybe 2013, but current SC workers wouldn't know that.

Having said all that, could I find a tech that has the software tools ("Toolbox", is that what they use?) To enable SuC for me for say $1K? Maybe. But then later, when I take the car to the SC if by chance they notice it's enabled, and I'm not entitled, the SC could disable it and I would be out $1K with no legal recourse, not having a receipt showing I ever legally paid for it. All theoretical mind you.

I see your point, though I gotta tell you early days of Tesla were pretty ad-hoc, they kept records in emails and sticky notes. Around 2020 Tesla realized they were accidentally enabling FSD on cars which were never supposed have had it in the first place - they reverted them but only starting with car made late 2017 or even 2018. You can probably still find threads on this on TMC. It implied pre 2018 they just didn't have records to prove who paid for what. I know I had referral credit dollars, and as funny as it sounds, each time I wanted to use it, I had to forward the SC the email chain which started with my sales person confirming I got the credit and that had emails confirming new referral or when I used it - an email chain ledger. I think technically they still owe me $10 or less of referral money, but I'm not going to bother with it - last time they changed out the 12V battery I just told them to call it even as my referral balance was a few dollars over the invoice after taxes.